El Monte, CA Police Shooting and Political Correctness

Mr. Pub

New member
Below is a story in today's L.A. Times. It involves a police shooting of a man suspected of being involved in a drug ring. I am not posting this to second guess the police involved in the shooting. I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they had reason to do what they did.

My problem is when police use political correctness to taint a citizen. How many times have we seen the police arrest someone on a minor charge and then display for the press the persons gun collection - infering that this person owns guns and therefore has to be a bad guy.

In this case they are trying to portray Mr. Paz as a bad guy because he owned an evil assault weapon. They ran a picture of these weapons in the paper. The weapon in question is a .22 pistol. Somehow this .22 is an assault weapon in Calif. Even if it technically fits the description of an assault weapon - its still legal. You don't even have to register until the end of the year. I am wondering - what is their point?

_____________________________________________
El Monte Police Tell Their Side of Story in Fatal Drug Raid
Shooting: Officials say evidence shows that house where man was mistakenly killed had links to an alleged dealer. They also display guns found at site.


By JOE MOZINGO, Times Staff Writer

Hoping to counter public criticism, El Monte police officials Thursday presented evidence that they say supports their decision to conduct a drug raid in Compton last year that led to the fatal shooting of an unarmed grandfather.
Relatives of the dead man, Mario Paz, have filed a wrongful death lawsuit against the cities of El Monte and Compton, alleging that police officers made a fatal error by shooting at Paz, then tried to cover up their mistake by intimidating witnesses.
Paz, 65, was kneeling at his bedside when he was shot in front of his wife, authorities have said. Police say the shooting was justified.
El Monte city officials said at a news conference Thursday that they had plenty of evidence supporting their belief that the Compton home where Paz and his family lived was linked to an alleged drug dealer named Marcos Beltran Lizarraga.
Giving the city's first full account of the Aug. 9 raid, El Monte Assistant Chief Bill Ankeny said Lizarraga used the address of the Paz family home for bank, cellular phone and Department of Motor Vehicles records.
Police displayed a photograph of the .22-caliber pistol they say was later found near Paz's body. They also played taped interviews with members of his family indicating that at least some of them realized they were the subject of a police raid. Family members had previously said that in the chaos of the incident, they feared they were under attack by burglars.
Ankeny said the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department worked almost six months to complete its investigation of the shooting. He said the city called a news conference to tell its side of the story, based in part on the investigation.
Attorney Johnnie L. Cochran Jr. filed a wrongful death lawsuit on behalf of the Paz family last month.
Attorney Cameron Stewart, who is also working for the family, said Thursday that none of the evidence presented by police refutes the contention that the shooting was unjustified. She acknowledged that Lizarraga used to live next door to the Paz family and sometimes used their home as a mail drop.
The news conference, Stewart said, was an effort to polish the city's tarnished image. But in doing so, she said, El Monte officials are "adding damage to a good family name."
Police said the hunt for Lizarraga began in June when officers searched two cars and found 400 pounds of marijuana, as well as evidence that guided them to Lizarraga's home in Chino.
When they searched the Chino home, Ankeny said, they found documents pointing to a house in Compton and to another in Valinda. They arrested Lizarraga at the scene. A judge issued search warrants for the two homes, thought to be used to store illegal drugs. At noon on Aug. 9, police found 400 pounds of marijuana and three AK-47 rifles at the Valinda house, Ankeny said. They arrested Lizarraga's brother there, but subsequently dropped the charges.
That night, officers raided the Paz home on West 131st Street.
As officers scrambled through the house, Paz reached under his bed for $10,000 in cash he had stored there, on the assumption the intruders were there to rob him, family members have said. Sgt. George Hopkins stormed into the darkened bedroom and opened fire, killing Paz.
After the shooting, police said Paz had been reaching for a drawer when he was killed. But on Thursday, Eugene Ramirez, an attorney representing the city, gave a different account.
He said Paz was grabbing for the drawer when Hopkins entered, and was repeatedly ordered to surrender.
"Mr. Paz turned and looked at Mr. Hopkins and then put his hands under the bed," Ramirez said. "He suddenly grabbed something . . . and turned his back to Mr. Hopkins. Mr. Paz became an immediate and credible threat to Mr. Hopkins."
Officials showed a picture of a .22-caliber Intratec Scorpion pistol with a 20-round clip, calling it an assault weapon, which they said was found in an open drawer next to Paz. Hopkins told investigators he did not see the gun before he shot Paz.
Police found two other handguns and a .22-caliber rifle in the home. No drugs were found.
At the news conference, Ramirez played two taped interviews conducted by sheriff's investigators. In one, Paz's son Jorge acknowledged that officers clearly identified themselves. The SWAT members "were saying, 'Search warrant, search warrant, this is the police,' " he said on the tape.
In another interview, the tape of which was difficult to understand, Maria Paz, the victim's wife, said the money found on their bed came from a man nicknamed "El Central" who had asked them to hold the cash. Maria Paz told The Times last year that her husband had withdrawn the money from a Tijuana bank for fear of a Y2K problem. She has financial records that support the claim.
"Part of the bank name where they withdrew the money is called El Central," Stewart said.
 
Well, I knew we'd get to the point where .22 rimfire firearms would be described as assault weapons ... didn't take nearly as long as I thought it would.

Things are moving pretty quickly in CA, no?

What a bunch of horse puckey.

Now, if you are one of our LEO friends, and I do mean friends, doesn't this kind of story help you understand the sensitivity regarding some LEO / civilian encounters?

The city's story simply reinforces the stupidity of no-knocks. But, some people will keep justifying this crap. Foolish. Very foolish.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited February 14, 2000).]
 
One correction I want to make is instead of saying "when the Police use political correctness". Obviously the line policemen are not involved in this. This is mostly the work of the unholy alliance between the DA/DOJ, the anti- politicians and the chiefs. I'll call this the political law enforcement bureaucracy (PLEB), for lack of a better phrase. They are the ones who come up with this stuff and yet "the police" get all the blame. I will try to delineate this difference in future posts.
 
Erick, thanks for your frank and honest reply. After some of the idiotic threads I've read lately, this is very refreshing.

Regards from AZ
 
Man. I really hate to say this, but I hope Johnnie Cochran wins this one...

------------------
"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
 
I remember reading the original topic posted to TFL several months back. I said then, and still say, that this was a bad shoot. It sounds like whoever was in charge of the investigation didn't do the leg work needed before sending in SWAT (which is oft overused in this age of military-civilian authority) in. It's feels weird ti say it, but I, too, hope Cochran wins.

------------------
Only in America, we're slaves to be free/Only in America, we kill the unborn, to make ends meet/Only in America, sexuality is democracy/Only in America, we stamp our god "In God we trust"

What is right or wrong?
I don't know who to believe in
My soul sings a different song, in America


If it isna Scottish, it's CRAP! RKBA!
 
I tried real hard to not say anything about this, but I am very alarmed at the increasing number of "oops" that are happening like this one. Mr. Paz was shot more than once in the back. He now has left behind a widow and nine children.
It apparently isn't too difficult to get a no knock warrant in California, since this was the fourth murder by SWAT in as many months in that State.
The alarming facts are:
The perp hadn't ever lived at the Paz residence, but in the house next door
The perp hadn't lived in the house next door since 1989, a well documented fact before this happened
The SWAT team used a CI, who, when taken past the area couldn't even ID for sure the correct house
They judge shopped to find an easy yes man who rubber stamped the warrant, and who has a rep for doing that
Neighbors said they had never seen any type of drug activity coming from the Paz residence.
It has taken them 6 months to present a very sanitized and emotionless version of "what happened". The widow's proof of banking records was completely dismissed, and was discovered after the fact. And now they are using the "blame the victim" excuse.
Worse, the same thing has happened in Colorado - that we know about.
I used to sign off with "The original point and click was a Smith and Wesson." But I cannot now use that in deference to the victims these events.
I hope with all my heart everyone involved is relieved of their duties as soon as possible. Next time it could be me because I sure don't fit my gender profile. I believe in the Constitution, the BOR, and true justice. I have guns,I have ammo, and I am not afraid to use them in conjunction with each other.
 
mk86, Jedi, you guys want Johnny Cochrane to win?!?!?!You'd probably let OJ date your daughter, too.
Nurse Nancy, you sure know alot about a situation 4 states away. You seem to know alot about CI's. Ever been one?

Ever hear of a "facilitator?" That's Paz's role in this mess. For every dope dealer (Lizzaraga), there are 20 like Paz, helping (however "little") him to deliver dope to the sh*theads in this country.

You three need to screw your heads on right.
 
Dave, go back and read the old thread. The neighbors were out the day after the shooting telling anybody who would listen (not many) that the cops were probably after somebody else who had lived in the neighborhood.

As for CI's, what do I have to know? I know that they don't seem always to have to know what they're talking about. I know that they're generally thugs, often high thugs (the very ****heads you mentioned) and that the word of one was apparently enough to convince some judge to let the cops send in the guys in ninja suits to ASSAULT the guy's house in the middle of the night. Exactly what would you tell me about CI's that will outweigh the horror I feel that such a situation is tolerated?

And where is your evidence that Paz was a facilitator, whatever that is? Sounds like a dealer to me, but why would the cops not release that information if they had it, especially after releasing all that info about the shooting?

Finally, I'll repeat my old saw about no-knocks because I know you're all dying to hear it again. A no-knock warrant is legalized murder. You read that right. If I were to break my neighbor's door down and point a gun at him while shouting at him to freeze while wearing a mask, it wouldn't matter if he reached for a gun or not. Even if he shot me center mass (let's say I'm wearing kevlar, for no particular reason) and I then killed him, it would still be murder. Probably first or second degree. Anyone with any sense would say that I provoked his response by bursting in armed, and since they'd assume I was rational as well they'd assume that I planned to murder him all along. Else why do something I KNOW will cause him to shoot at me?
If I can't do it, why can the state do it just because some thug looking for a deal gives his word that there's a good reason?
 
Gwinny,
CI = snitch, not at issue in the Paz shooting. And a facilitator is somebody who lets somebody else (dope dealer) use their address as a mail drop, etc.You ever let "your next door neighbor" use your address for mail? Most people don't.
$10k under the mattress? Come on. Maybe this case could have been handled differently (we can Monday morning QB anything), but this Paz is not the totally innocent "citizen" Johnny Cockroach, or any of you think. Conspiracy theories are fine, just leave 'em for the Kennedies.
 
Dave is right on the money. as one of those occasional 'ninjas', I can't tell you how important a no-knock can be at times. I've definitely acquired a taste for this breathing thing....
As to how 'innocent' this person might (or might not!) be, I can assure you that there are VERY few people in prison whose family will admit to what they did.
Yes, there may have been errors, but then again there may not have been. Drugs have a nasty habit of moving quickly. I have seen SWs on a house only a few hours old, and POUNDS of various substances had been moved in that time.
Further, a SW requires an impartial 3rd party (the judge) to examine the requesting officer's reasoning for the warrant, and then issue or refuse the warrant based on that. If a warrant is bad, you better be looking at the judge who issued it.
Last, an entry moves FAST. Guns pointing in the wrong direction are fairly common, and an officer has as much of a right to defend himself as anyone else.


------------------
I don't CARE about pretty....I just want dangerous.
 
Nyterunner,

No amount of drugs is worth illiciting a defensive response from an innocent individual, who will die in the attempt to defend themselves against masked intruders.

No-knocks are a license to kill.

------------------
John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
 
No-knocks for drug dealers today = No-knocks for gun owners tomorrow.

Cops are NOT military attack troops. Not in my America.

Whatever happened to bullhorns and 'Rocco, come out with your hands up! We've got you surrounded!' ???

Now we have Lon Horiuchi wannabies in 'tactical' black :(
 
I reread the story and it does indeed say that they let Lizarraga use the house as a mail drop, and that the cash was not his savings. That does make it look like, in this case, Mr. Paz is not quite as innocent of drug charges as I thought. I apologize for that and only that. And I still say it only makes a difference if it's OK to murder someone over drugs and money.

Now to Dave's questions:

"CI = snitch, not at issue in the Paz shooting."

I apologize. I thought I read in the original account that the warrant was issued on the word of an informant. Maybe another case. Do you deny that a snitch's word is often enough to get a no-knock issued?

"And a facilitator is somebody who lets somebody else (dope dealer) use their address as a mail drop, etc."

Sooo . . . . if anyone asks me to use my house as a dropoff, they're drug dealers? Read on.

"You ever let "your next door neighbor" use your address for mail? Most people don't."

Actually, I do. Well, my family back home does, and did when I was living there. My sister was home during the day so they'd have UPS ship to our house. Guess we should have cut our neighbors' packages open and checked for Cocaine, or better yet called the police and warned them that a dangerous drug gang lived next door. Of course, my neighbors are a young white couple with two children and a nice house, so maybe a no-knock wouldn't be necessary.

"$10k under the mattress? Come on. Maybe this case could have been handled differently (we can Monday morning QB anything), but this Paz is not the totally innocent "citizen" Johnny Cockroach, or any of you think."

Regardless of your opinion of his guilt or innocence, he's supposed to be treated as if he were innocent so he can't be abused or murdered by the state without even being taken to trial. That didn't happen. In short, it doesn't MATTER that you think he looks guilty. It doesn't even matter that I think he looks guilty. What matters is that he was murdered for the crime of letting a criminal use his mailing address and holding some other guy's money. No matter how bad those things make him look, they DON'T JUSTIFY BURSTING INTO HIS HOUSE AND SHOOTING AT HIM LATE AT NIGHT.

If you think police work is too dangerous when you have to work within the framework of the Constitution, maybe you should get out. I don't mean that as a flame, but when I decided I didn't want to be a cop, I simply didn't become one. You guys seem to want to rewrite the Constitution to make your jobs better. NO.

And this is all over drugs!!! Big fugging deal. How can it possibly be worth it?

"Conspiracy theories are fine, just leave 'em for the Kennedies."

I haven't mentioned any conspiracy. I don't recall if anyone else on this thread did but I doubt it. You can dismiss anyone's argument by labeling it "conspiracy theory" almost as fast as calling the person a "racist," but that doesn't make you right. I never alleged a conspiracy, I said I think the warrant was a bad idea, the assault on the house a worse one, and a man got murdered with the blessing of the police. And now the cops are releasing info in an attempt to look good--which doesn't make me much less suspicious.

[This message has been edited by Gwinnydapooh (edited February 24, 2000).]
 
Gwinny, if you think drugs aren't a big deal, you're part of the problem. The gun control-drug control similarities don't wash.
And no, you can't get a "no-knock" with a snitch's word (at least in my jurisdiction). And unless a snitch is proven "reliable" in court, you can't get ANY warrant on just his word. All his info must be corroborated.
As far as "police work being too dangerous", who said that? I've been doing it 20 years, and I'm good at it.
What really shows your ignorance is your reference to cops rewriting the Constitution to suit "our" goals. Most of the cops I know are rabid supporters of the Constitution as written, including (especially) the Second Amendment. They also support your First Amendment rights to shoot off your mouth before you know any facts. It's the liberals (media/students/Pesident, et al) who are trying to rewrite the constitution.
 
I guess that I am part of your problem too.

LE rewrites the constitution every time that a no knock raid happens.

[This message has been edited by 6forsure (edited February 24, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Whatever happened to bullhorns and 'Rocco, come out with your hands up! We've got you surrounded!' ???[/quote]

Ah, those were the days. Rocco would have come out quietly, instead of shooting it out and/or taking hostages like they do today.

And if Rocco had gotten stupid, shot it out with the cops, and killed an innocent civilian, they bereaved family would have blamed Rocco. Not like today, where the bereaved family blames the cops for 'poor tactics', sues the department and files civil rights violations against the cops, even though Rocco pulled the trigger not the cops.

LawDog
 
The point to this whole mess is that the 'drug war' is destroying our rights more than any other thing. When will it be realized that the drug war is WRONG!! Look at how it even pits us against each other. Legalize the damn things and be done with it. Liberty will smile if we do and the cops will only bother actual criminals.

------------------
Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN)
MD C.A.N.OP
tbellomo@home.com
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/digital/237/cansite/can.html
www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
 
Back
Top