Effectiveness of the .30 caliber carbine caartridge

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New member
Two friends who want a light rifle primarily for self defense have asked me what I think of the .30 caliber carbine in this role. I have no personal experience with the .30 caliber carbine caartridge in actual combat and would ne interested in hearing the opinions of members who have.
 
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Hope this will help:
UNITED STATES .30 Carbine Ball M1
Introduced: 1940
Official Adoption by US Army 1941
Modified .32 Winchester
Self loading rifle case.
Type: Strt Taper to neck CF
Length: 1.68"
Wgt: 193gr
Powder: Nitrocellulose
Chg: 14.5 gr
Primer: Boxer (Sml Rifle)

BULLET:

Type: Full Jacketed (Rnd Nose)
Wgt: 111gr
Length: .690"

CARTRIDGE CASE:
Length: 1.65"
Case: 1.290"
Cartridge: 1.65"
Dia: Rim: .360""
Base: .354"
Mouth: .331"
Bullet: .308
Neck: .335"
Twist: 10
Factory Ballistics:
Bullet: MV: ME:
110gr 1975 955
110gr 1970 948

Pressure: 40,000 lb/sq.in.
Bore Dia:
Min: .300"
Max: .308"
The U.S. Ordnance Dept. concluded that a light carbine might have certain advantages over the 45-caliber semi-auto pistol in many combat situations. Various designs were submitted by
a numerous of private manufacturers and in the end Winchester's carbine was selected. The cartridge is a modification of the 32 Winchester self-loading round of 1906, was hardly a revolutionary design, but it served the purpose. About the same time , the Germans developed their assault rifle and the 7.92 Kurtz (short) cartridge. The M-1 Carbine is not an assault rifle and the military insist it was designed to fulfill a different purpose. A few sporting rifles and handguns have been chambered for this cartridge.
UNITED STATES .30 Carbine Ball M1
Introduced: 1940
Official Adoption by US Army 1941
Modified .32 Winchester
Self loading rifle case.
Type: Strt Taper to neck CF
Length: 1.68"
Wgt: 193gr
Powder: Nitrocellulose
Chg: 14.5 gr
Primer: Boxer (Sml Rifle)
BULLET:
Type: Full Jacketed (Rnd Nose)
Wgt: 111gr
Length: .690"
CARTRIDGE CASE:
Length: 1.65"
Case: 1.290"
Cartridge: 1.65"
Dia: Rim: .360""
Base: .354"
Mouth: .331"
Bullet: .308
Neck: .335"
Twist: 10
Factory Ballistics:
Bullet: MV: ME:
110gr 1975 955
110gr 1970 948
Pressure: 40,000 lb/sq.in.
Bore Dia:
Min: .300"
Max: .308"


U.S. CARBINE .30 M1 and M1A1

The carbine form of a service rifle is normally a cut down version of the rifle, receivers and calibers being identical. It is essential to emphasize that the U.S. Carbines, M1 and M1A1 are distinctive arms differing in all their parts, either in design or size, from the standard M1
Garand. The Carbine also has the .30 caliber however it is a short straight tapered case not which is not interchangeable with the 30 caliber (30-06) Garand rifle.

CARBINE CALIBER .30 M1

Shortly after the introduction of the M-1 Garand, semi-automatic rifle, 1936, the Army was looking for a rifle that was some-what smaller and easier to handle, that could be issued to administrative personnel. The Garand was just a bit cumbersome for cooks, clerks, mechanics armored vehicle crews and medical personnel to handle along with doing their every-day duties. In fact many of these soldiers were issued the 1911 .45 Caliber semi-automatic pistol instead of the heavier Garand.

In 1938 the U.S. decided that a small carbine model was needed and submitted its request through channels. The initial request was turned down, probably because the Grand had just been accepted two years previously and felt that it and the 1911 .45 Caliber was sufficient.

Two years later, the U.S. Ordnance Department decided that they did need a light carbine that would have advantages over the 45-Caliber semi-auto pistol in many combat situations and submitted requests to various private manufacturers with the specifications for a light carbine.

The design for the carbine and ammunition presented by Winchester was accepted and adapted in 1941. I can recall this particular carbine as being one of the weapons on the M-60 tank, which I was the commander in Leipeim Germany, in the mid 1950's. As previously mentioned, all crew members had to be proficient with individual and crew served weapons of the tank. That meant although as a crew member you may have been issued as 1911 45 Pistol and a carbine, you had to be proficient with those two weapons plus the M-3 45 Cal Sub-Machine gun, the M37 Machine Gun, the M1 Garand and 90mm cannon.
By comparison to the M-1 Garand, this carbine was easier to handle and a much more comfortable weapon to shoot. The recoil was considerably less and it was lighter. During qualification, most soldiers fired this weapon with better qualifying scores than with the Garand.

Upon my assignment to the Republic of South Viet Nam in Sep 1969, as a military advisor to the infantry commanders, the M-1 carbine surfaced in the Popular Forces inventory and I again found myself re-establishing my familiarity with this weapon.

Popular Forces, Poor Folks, as we called them, were the people who lived in the jungles. We assisted these people in building fortifications, teaching them tactics, marksmanship, booby-traps, and defense against attacks by the Viet Cong.

The M-1 Carbine has been around for many years and used by many countries as a combat weapons, and also by some Federal Law Enforcement agencies. In 1989 I was accepted at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center as a firearms instructor I again found the M-1 Carbine being used with The Federal Bureau of Prisons as their standard issue rifle.

As with any weapon designed for the military, there are alternate designs used for specialty reasons. The carbine is no exception.

U.S. Carbine, Cal .30 M1A1:
This was a design made for paratroops, which was the same basic weapon as the M-1, however, it had a folding metal stock. This made it much easier and compact to jump with and
could be used as designed once the paratrooper was on the ground and unfolded the stock.

U.S. Carbine Cal .30, M2:
The original specifications required a selective fire mechanism, however, this was deleted during the development phase and the M-1 was a single shot semi-automatic carbine. After being in service for some time the demand went out for the select fire for use in emergencies. This demand was quickly responded to making it a semi-and full automatic.



U.S. Carbine Cal .30 M3:

This particular carbine was a standard M2 equipped with various types of night firing devices of that particular era. No open sights or conventional sights were provided.

The U.S. Carbine Cal .30, MI saw action in WWII, the Korean Conflict and the Viet Nam War, to include operations which are still considered secret by the governments that
employed them. It performed well throughout its life span in the military. The semi-automatic version is available on the civilian markets as well. Many of the military semi-auto versions are in fact now being imported after years of War Storage in Korea, and being sold on the civilian market

[This message has been edited by Harley Nolden (edited December 22, 1999).]
 
WOW! Ask and ye shall receive,

No personal experiances, but Chuck Karwan likes it (considers it underrated) and so did Ltc. George, author of "Shots Fired in Anger" (or something close to that). He was a for real combat vet from WWII.

I would say that there is nothing wrong with a 110 grain softpoint at 1900 fps. I would be leery of the FMJ rounds, but would not consider myself unarmed with one.

Giz
 
And they're fun, fun, fun! to shoot!

M-2s are even more fun. :)

Ammo's cheap, 15-round mags are cheap, and Cheaper Than Dirt used to have five-round mags.

They may not be the world's greatest one-shot stoppers, but multiple hits are just real, real easy...

:), Art
 
With the use of a good soft point they are good anti personel guns at a reasonable range.

I just wish some one would load something like a Golddot/Golden Saber/Silvertip Hp for it.

Cheers,

ts
 
I have also read that the REASON the carbine was adopted was that the 1911 45 auto pistol was relatively expensive to produce and with the "lightning war" tactics there was a real fear that Supply/medical/etc and other rear echelon troops could be facing the enemy. We needed to arm those troops with something bigger than a pistol, that was inexpensive.

The Carbine was the winner.

Far from shunned the M1 carbine was issued in numbers rivaling the garand, particularly in the pacific where long rangeshooting was less likely.

My dad never cared for its accuracy when he was issued one to walk guard duty during the cuban missle crisis.. but as many have said you would not want to get shot by one.

I find it suprising that the military kept developing "battle rifles" ala the m-14 when the carbine was already in US arsenals.. Troops carrying the carbine could carry a LOT more ammunition than a garand (2x for the same wieght) and the 15 shot clip (and later 30) gave the service man a faster reload and longer capacity to keep shooting.

I've always thought the carbine would make a good "truck gun" or trail gun in a scabbard... something you might want to have with you for predator control, etc on the range, when you don't want a bulkier full sized rifle.

Ballistics are similar to a hyped-up 357 pistol, and if the bullet design was better it could be a better, badder little gun. Say if PMC made a starfire bullet for it??

I've seen soft point loads for the carbine and in a pinch that's what I'd stoke it with, better to have a bullet that expands over one that doesn't.

it also still looks "nicer" than a black rifle until you stick a 30 shot clip in it..

and those clips are ALL OVER the place. Its suprising more M-1 carbines aren't in civilan hands (as a good "militia" weapon), but it appears we gave away mountains of them to allies and armies all over the world.

Hope the info helps,

Dr.Rob
 
The cartridge has probably earned more criticism than praise. Anemic bullet and shot placement is critical (as with any other bullet). You have to head shoot them to put them down.

Melvin Johnson developed a necked down 2.7 mm version called the Spitfire. An military version based on the .222 Remington was also proposed for adoption and killed by Col. Studler (Ordnance Dept). Both featured a 22 caliber bullet which would zip out at about 3K fps MV.

Can anybody here post the data for the new FN 2.7 bullet and the Spitfire?


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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
Dr. Rob: I worked with a guy who had been a Marine Corps medic in WW II; Guadalcanal, among other adventures.

His comment about comparing the Carbine and the Garand: If you saw a squad of Japs out at 400-500 yards or so , they would not break stride if they heard Carbines popping. But when the Garand started talking, they would scatter.

Capt. Phil Sharpe, in the Post War addendum to his "Complete Guide to Handloading" discusses the Carbine. He mentions a deer hunt in Germany, with GI ammo. The deer finally went down, after 63 hits. He mentions a GI who showed up with a bad facial scar. Seems he had body-shot a German soldier with his Carbine. The first hit was not enough to prevent the German from shooting back with his 9mm...

One reason for the development and issue was to have a bit more range than the 1911 pistol; plus, more people already knew how to shoot a rifle-style weapon than were competent with a pistol.

FWIW, Art
 
Hi, guys,

The carbine was never intended as a battle rifle. In the pre-WWII TOE, squad and platoon leaders as well as all officers were armed with the pistol, as were most troops who were "non-combat" or whose weapons were other than small arms. The problem with the .45 was not that it was expensive but that it took a lot of training to hit with it, training time the WWII military did not have. Hence the development and production of the carbine as a substitute for the pistol, not for the M1 rifle.

It is a little unfair to compare the carbine with any service rifle. It is a little like saying a Jeep was no good because it was not a tank.

The idea that the military should have used the carbine instead of the M1 rifle, M14 or M16 is pretty far out. All are far more effective than the carbine for infantry fighting.

Jim
 
There is a German who is alive today that took 17 rounds in the back at 20 yards. The shots were hitting in his back pack and blanket roll and they never penetrated the blanket roll. In other words it sucks as a man stopper! The sole purpose of the carbine was to replace the side arm for behind the line troops as it was easier to hit with than a pistol. Just before they were retired we had to inspect them with xray every 400 rounds and would condemn 25 % of them for cracked receivers each time we inspected them. In combat they would be thrown away as soon as anyone could get his hands on a Garand.
 
Sounds like one tough tightly rolled blanket.

Gale, would those receivers crack around the rear (behind the rear sight) or elsewhere?
 
I read somewhere that during the Korean War, the .30 carbine wouldn't penetrate the Chinese Communist great coats. Supposedly you could see the back ends of the bullets sticking out of the coats. Tell your friends to consider another rifle, like the Ruger Mini 14 or Mini 30.
 
At least those Korean vets I met said that M1 carbine was liked: light, fast, effective at close range. Using it at 1,5 clicks was a misuse of what was basically a better sidearm...that's what Garand/BAR/M2 were for. Ask them if a Grease Gun or 1911 would have any more effect when used at 500m...
 
Oleg: In late '54, the Ack-ack battalion I was in got transferred to Inchon. From time to time, several of us would go to the arms-shack and persuade the Armorer to let us "liberate" a few 600-round cans of carbine ammo.

We'd go to the tidal flats at low tide--some ten miles of mud--and goof off, firing full-auto at seagulls and such. Those little M-2 chatterguns would run through a 30-round banana clip just real fast. They were very controllable. We upset a lot of seagulls...

At close ranges, self-defense situations, even the semi-auto would be a nasty little piece of equipment. As I said before, I wouldn't think in terms of one-shot stopping; I'd shoot till the problem stopped being a problem.

And the ballistics are similar to a six-inch .357.

FWIW, Art
 
I have a 30 m1 carbine , Iver Johnson, 1993
and had a 1943 WW2 Underwood with the bayonet lug which I sold to a collector.

Two things made me fall in love with the 30m1 carbine. 1. it only wieghs about 3 pounds so it is very easy to carry.2. It is a joy to shoot, very light recoil, you can shoot it all day long.

I am told that the knock down power at
125 yards is the same as a 38 special 2 inch
snub nose at point blank range.

I have also heard that you shouldnt shoot at targets beyond 150 yards because of
bullets bouncing off bedrolls & great coats
etc.

I guess you should consider 150+ yards
targets as a misuse of the 30m1 carbine as you are trying to exceed the guns effective range.

Many hunters have used 30m1 carbines to take deer at up to 150 yards.

I also have an AMT AUTOMAG 3 (1911 type) single action semi auto pistol chambered in 30 carbine. Only a 44 mag
revolver kicks more! I am going to get it magna ported to calm its recoil down so that I can hit the target with it.

I dont need to magna port the 44 mag rev because I can shoot cowboy action loads,
really light powder charges but with an auto loader, you can not reduce the powder charge below 10 % of maximum because the cartdrige does not develop enough pressure to cycle the action.

I gota sack out cause my head just hit he keyboard fer the third time! good night all.

------------------
Every year,over 2 million Americans use firearms
to preserve life,limb & family.Gun Control Democrats
would prefer that they all die,instead.
ernest2, Conn. CAN opp. "Do What You Can"!
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/digital/237/cansite/can.html
 
4V50 Gary the cracks were around the front locking lug area. I had one blow the bolt out of the receiver and hit the shooter in the temple as it went spinning by . It made his day. Knocked him cold as a cucumber . I thought it had killed him. Some manufacture were worse than others but can't remember which were the bad ones. These rifles I am speaking of were marksman training rifles that were shot more on a week than a regular service rifle would be in a life time . We ran 4 men a day and each man shot 50 rounds. The range they shot the M1 carbine was 1000 inches!
 
I used a .30 caliber carbine whuile on active duty with the US Army. As a combat round using issue ammunition it is significantly more effective than 9mm Luger FMJ ammunintion As to combat effectiveness, anyone I shot with it (using raoid semiautomaic fire). promptly went down out of action. I cannot comment pn its "one shot stopping power. I never shot any ome with a carbine just once.
With mpdern commercial soft point or hollow point it would be much more effective, Jim Cirillo says that on the old NYPD stakeout squad it was the most effective weapon they had using handloaded soft point bullets, being better than .38 special +P. .45ACP, and 12 gage shotguns at close range.
 
Gale: I first saw the "1000-inch" range in 1954 at Ft. Bliss during Basic. We used the Garand. I couldn't figure out the point of it, until I watched the "city boys" try to learn the concept of sighting in, and then hit anything at all! Yuck!

Hard Ball: You mean that the NYPD cops were using "Civilian Killer Bullets"? :)

Later, Art
 
They certainly were, Art, but then the civilians were trying to kill thrm. After his first Stakeout squad shootout Cirillo's captain looked at the dead bodies cluttering uo thr scene and asked "Did you read them their Miranda rights?"
Cirillo replied "Yes, Caotain, but I gon't think they heard them There were too damn many guns going off!"
 
I wonder where all of the 7.62x25mm Tokarev horror stories are from WW2 and Korea? After all, the cartridge has a lighter projectile and lower velocity than the .30 Carbine. Perhaps German and US troops weren't wearing coats and bed-rolls quite as thick as their Red adversaries?
 
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