I live in an urban area (townhouse) and work in the city. It seems that a rifle may be overkill. I have a shotgun, but saw the kel-tec sub 2000. Since it comes with one 15rd magand is configured to accept Beretta standard mags, this almost seems like a match made in heaven. I have two 92fs's and 6 standard mags now. Also, what is the effective range and best round. I currently use Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P.
Effectiveness of 9mm carbine
- Thread starter ljhj45
- Start date
AndrewWalkowiak
New member
Sub Rifle
I have the original Sub9 carbine and I love it. It is reliable, and the folding action is just too neat for words. It is also very easy to clean. The Sub2000 is essentially the same, but now with a one-piece polymer reciver and grip assembly.
Most urban indoor gun ranges will let you shoot it because of the handgun caliber, and being able to fold it smaller than a briefcase to take it out shooting is great if your neighbors are hand-wringing panty-waisted anti-gun sheeple. Kel-Tec service is legendary, and they have several accesories for thier carbine.
www.kel-tec.com
I'm actually surprised the darn thing hasn't shown up in the movies yet. Probably a good thing. If it's folding nature is used as too pivital a Hollywierd plot device, it'll probably get banned for the neat way it gets around the folding stock ban.
9mm ballistics out of a 16" barrel start to approach .357mag. (I said approach
) I'd feel that 9mm has reasonable effectivenes to about 100 yards. Beyond that, it really drops. The savvy handloader can take advantage of the 16' barrel length and use a slower burning powder, and the longer time the rifling has to act on a heavier bullet to get the most of the 9mm though.
The action is closed bolt, straight blowback. The mag interchangability is great. You can either pick a mag for your handgun, or order it for whatever hi-caps are cheap. Your choice.
The only ergonomic downsides are the straight tube stock, which makes a comfortable cheek-weld difficult for those with long necks, and the reciprocating bolt handle, while out of the way, is disconcerting so close to the body for some.
I like the pointablility and I find the sights to be decent. Tearing out the center of a B-27 target at any handgun range is laughably easy.
9mm penetration in urban environments is hotly debated.
For instance, some claim that pistol rounds are better than rifle rounds in all circumstances for overpenetration. Others say tests show that light varmint .223's/5.56's from a carbine actually penetrates less in standard stud and drywall construction than 9mm, while still providing soft body armor penetration. Then there's the rebuttal that in a clear shot into air, 9mm wouldn't travel as far as .223 providing a greater margin of downrange safety. Then the counter rebuttal that on pavment, .223 is more likely to merely fragment, and that the 9mm will riccochet much more easily.
It goes on and on...
Either way, common sense under stress is your only real way to prevent colateral damage amongst your neighbors in a defensive situation. Weapon/caliber choices within reason are secondary.
That being said, I would definitely not feel under-armed were I to find myself in trouble and had my Sub9. The folding action makes it very appealing to store it in all sorts of nifty quick-access ways. Although FWIW, for my use at home, (close single family row houses, no brick) I choose a 12ga loaded with Federal multi-purpose #7 shot, and a Gock 21 in .45 with Hydrashocks.
Even with bird or clay target loads, in most normal homes under 2000 sqft., the firing distances are such that the shot column behaves more like a slug in an attacker, but the shot scatters easily as it passes through the first obstruction it finds, and each pellet is lower mass than even a .22 and looses velocity very quickly. Even then, shot is not magic, for preventing overpenetration or aiming, and I need to think about where I am pointing that shotgun.
OTOH, compared to a pistol, the longer sight radius of the carbine, and the stock, makes for much more accurate shooting, so even if 9mm penetration is a concern, there is a much greater probability that the attacker will be there to slow it down some first.
In a nutshell, I DO reccomend the Kel-Tec carbine. I love mine, and it is the most fun gun I have out of about 20 pistols and rifles, and it is the only one that allways goes with me to the range. I think it is definitely adequate for personal defense as well. Unfortunately, the issue of overpenetration is a complex one and everyone needs to make up thier own minds based on thier needs and what they're comfortable with.
Andrew
I have the original Sub9 carbine and I love it. It is reliable, and the folding action is just too neat for words. It is also very easy to clean. The Sub2000 is essentially the same, but now with a one-piece polymer reciver and grip assembly.
Most urban indoor gun ranges will let you shoot it because of the handgun caliber, and being able to fold it smaller than a briefcase to take it out shooting is great if your neighbors are hand-wringing panty-waisted anti-gun sheeple. Kel-Tec service is legendary, and they have several accesories for thier carbine.
www.kel-tec.com
I'm actually surprised the darn thing hasn't shown up in the movies yet. Probably a good thing. If it's folding nature is used as too pivital a Hollywierd plot device, it'll probably get banned for the neat way it gets around the folding stock ban.
9mm ballistics out of a 16" barrel start to approach .357mag. (I said approach
) I'd feel that 9mm has reasonable effectivenes to about 100 yards. Beyond that, it really drops. The savvy handloader can take advantage of the 16' barrel length and use a slower burning powder, and the longer time the rifling has to act on a heavier bullet to get the most of the 9mm though.The action is closed bolt, straight blowback. The mag interchangability is great. You can either pick a mag for your handgun, or order it for whatever hi-caps are cheap. Your choice.
The only ergonomic downsides are the straight tube stock, which makes a comfortable cheek-weld difficult for those with long necks, and the reciprocating bolt handle, while out of the way, is disconcerting so close to the body for some.
I like the pointablility and I find the sights to be decent. Tearing out the center of a B-27 target at any handgun range is laughably easy.
9mm penetration in urban environments is hotly debated.
For instance, some claim that pistol rounds are better than rifle rounds in all circumstances for overpenetration. Others say tests show that light varmint .223's/5.56's from a carbine actually penetrates less in standard stud and drywall construction than 9mm, while still providing soft body armor penetration. Then there's the rebuttal that in a clear shot into air, 9mm wouldn't travel as far as .223 providing a greater margin of downrange safety. Then the counter rebuttal that on pavment, .223 is more likely to merely fragment, and that the 9mm will riccochet much more easily.
It goes on and on...
Either way, common sense under stress is your only real way to prevent colateral damage amongst your neighbors in a defensive situation. Weapon/caliber choices within reason are secondary.
That being said, I would definitely not feel under-armed were I to find myself in trouble and had my Sub9. The folding action makes it very appealing to store it in all sorts of nifty quick-access ways. Although FWIW, for my use at home, (close single family row houses, no brick) I choose a 12ga loaded with Federal multi-purpose #7 shot, and a Gock 21 in .45 with Hydrashocks.
Even with bird or clay target loads, in most normal homes under 2000 sqft., the firing distances are such that the shot column behaves more like a slug in an attacker, but the shot scatters easily as it passes through the first obstruction it finds, and each pellet is lower mass than even a .22 and looses velocity very quickly. Even then, shot is not magic, for preventing overpenetration or aiming, and I need to think about where I am pointing that shotgun.
OTOH, compared to a pistol, the longer sight radius of the carbine, and the stock, makes for much more accurate shooting, so even if 9mm penetration is a concern, there is a much greater probability that the attacker will be there to slow it down some first.
In a nutshell, I DO reccomend the Kel-Tec carbine. I love mine, and it is the most fun gun I have out of about 20 pistols and rifles, and it is the only one that allways goes with me to the range. I think it is definitely adequate for personal defense as well. Unfortunately, the issue of overpenetration is a complex one and everyone needs to make up thier own minds based on thier needs and what they're comfortable with.
Andrew
Charmedlyfe
Moderator
I've got an Uzi. Before I got it, I didn't like 9mm at all. I now have faith in this little round.
If you can get ahold of some Gold Dot +P+ 115gr, you will be, uh, like, AMAZED at how effective this cartridge can be.
If you can get ahold of some Gold Dot +P+ 115gr, you will be, uh, like, AMAZED at how effective this cartridge can be.
dwesson445
New member
I once observed to my gunsmith that I didn't see any reason to own an M1 carbine and he pointed out that it weighs less and has more velocity than an Uzi. I'm not sure about the weight, but I'd agree that for rifle applications you'd be better off with the Carbine. Of course, the M1 ammo's more difficult to find... You might consider one of them instead of the Kel Tec. You could also look at a Marlin Camp Carbine 9, which is a nifty little rifle, too.
Charmedlyfe
Moderator
I agree that the carbine is lighter than an Uzi. Of course, the Uzi is shorter (I like shorter) and ammo is a LOT cheaper by about two boxes of 9mm to one of .30 carbine. I can handle my Uzi in a shoot house easily, but a carbine would not be efficient when cornering.
The lack of good hollowpoints at a good price is a major handicap for the carbine. I'd like to see some produced with the Starfire 30-30 bullet (HP).
The Uzi is more ergonomic than the carbine, especially reloading. The Uzi and Kel-tec both have the magazine in the pistol grip, thus allowing faster reloads without having to watch the process.
I like the Keltec folds. Genius. My question is, is there a mount out there for an aimpoint, or is one built into the gun? I think I need one of these......
The lack of good hollowpoints at a good price is a major handicap for the carbine. I'd like to see some produced with the Starfire 30-30 bullet (HP).
The Uzi is more ergonomic than the carbine, especially reloading. The Uzi and Kel-tec both have the magazine in the pistol grip, thus allowing faster reloads without having to watch the process.
I like the Keltec folds. Genius. My question is, is there a mount out there for an aimpoint, or is one built into the gun? I think I need one of these......
Chad Young
New member
If you do a search here on TFL, I did a post a few months back where I compared the speeds of 9mm ammo from a Ruger P89 pistol and a Marlin Model 9 Camp Carbine. In summary, 115 and 124 grain rounds gained about 25% in velocity. The 135-grain bullet gained less, the the 147-grain about broke even. These were purely unscientific anecdotal tests, of course, but interesting.
As for effective range, I have used a Camp Carbine to poke holes in (empty) Freon cans easily at 100 yards. For most uses 50-100 yards is the reasonable maximum range.
Just be aware that the Camp Carbine is not rated for 9mm NATO, +P, or +P+ ammo. The Ruger PC9 is. I dunno about the Kel-Tec.
As for effective range, I have used a Camp Carbine to poke holes in (empty) Freon cans easily at 100 yards. For most uses 50-100 yards is the reasonable maximum range.
Just be aware that the Camp Carbine is not rated for 9mm NATO, +P, or +P+ ammo. The Ruger PC9 is. I dunno about the Kel-Tec.
AndrewWalkowiak
New member
The Marlin is discontinued, isn't it? If so, ljhj45 will have to find one used. I don't know what the situation is like in the rest of the country, but I've never seen a used one for sale up here. I think that those that have them tend to keep them. Rarely seeing a gun for sale used is a good advertisment in it's own way though.
Gunbroker does list one Camp 9 right now though:
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=2149853
The Marlin also only takes S&W 5900 series 9mm magazines. The upside is that these are very common, and even inexpensive after-market 30 rounders are in good supply right now with places like Tapco. It also has a more "traditional" sporting look, which could help if PC appearance is a concern.
The downside to a Camp 9 is that ljhj45 is interested in magazine compatibility with his Beretta. Also, a Camp9, even a pre '94 Camp 9 that didn't have a pistol grip and folder before '94 ban, can't legally have both added now. The Kel-Tec can have both because it dosen't fold in the stock, it folds in the action.
The Kel-Tec Sub2000 is supposed to list for around $380 MSRP and a decent street price could be as low as $290. It compares very favorably in price to the original Sub9 and the Sub40 which ran about $400-600.
The Ruger PC9 also seems to get good reviews although it will be more expensive, up into the high $400's at least, and it takes Ruger "P" series mags, which are still reasonably plentiful. Since it's a completely Pre-ban (edit, sorry) POST-ban item, not even counting Ruger's own politics, a pistol grip will never be offered from the factory.
Andrew
Gunbroker does list one Camp 9 right now though:
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=2149853
The Marlin also only takes S&W 5900 series 9mm magazines. The upside is that these are very common, and even inexpensive after-market 30 rounders are in good supply right now with places like Tapco. It also has a more "traditional" sporting look, which could help if PC appearance is a concern.
The downside to a Camp 9 is that ljhj45 is interested in magazine compatibility with his Beretta. Also, a Camp9, even a pre '94 Camp 9 that didn't have a pistol grip and folder before '94 ban, can't legally have both added now. The Kel-Tec can have both because it dosen't fold in the stock, it folds in the action.
The Kel-Tec Sub2000 is supposed to list for around $380 MSRP and a decent street price could be as low as $290. It compares very favorably in price to the original Sub9 and the Sub40 which ran about $400-600.
The Ruger PC9 also seems to get good reviews although it will be more expensive, up into the high $400's at least, and it takes Ruger "P" series mags, which are still reasonably plentiful. Since it's a completely Pre-ban (edit, sorry) POST-ban item, not even counting Ruger's own politics, a pistol grip will never be offered from the factory.
Andrew
Last edited:
Chad Young
New member
Andrew-
I think you meant that the PC-9 is "post-ban" not Pre-ban.
Anyway, the trigger group is part of the stock so there will likely be few, if any, aftermarket stocks for the gun.
And, yes, the Marlin Camp Carbine is out of production. I am trying to find one in .45 ACP.
I think you meant that the PC-9 is "post-ban" not Pre-ban.
Anyway, the trigger group is part of the stock so there will likely be few, if any, aftermarket stocks for the gun.
And, yes, the Marlin Camp Carbine is out of production. I am trying to find one in .45 ACP.
But.. it's... so... Ugly.
Fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.
Considering WHERE it folds I can see a ruptured case blowing the action open and poking a hole in your forehead when the front sight swings up out of your hand and back.
Maybe it works?
But man, its Ugly.
I looked at a Camp 9 years ago.. they just look too much like my Marlin 995's internals. the mag availability was a big plus though, I just don't expect it to last like a milspec rifle.
The Ruger looks rugged, and no doubt that to Uzi is. The cadillac of 9mm carbines is the HK 94.. price is prohibitive.
But an M-1 carbine (sans mag) looks innocent. Slap a 30 rounder full of softpoints in it and its a pretty formidable SHTF rifle. Thats a FAR better long arm than any 9mm carbine. Price isn't to steep, yet. Mags are still cheap.
Fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.
Considering WHERE it folds I can see a ruptured case blowing the action open and poking a hole in your forehead when the front sight swings up out of your hand and back.
Maybe it works?
But man, its Ugly.
I looked at a Camp 9 years ago.. they just look too much like my Marlin 995's internals. the mag availability was a big plus though, I just don't expect it to last like a milspec rifle.
The Ruger looks rugged, and no doubt that to Uzi is. The cadillac of 9mm carbines is the HK 94.. price is prohibitive.
But an M-1 carbine (sans mag) looks innocent. Slap a 30 rounder full of softpoints in it and its a pretty formidable SHTF rifle. Thats a FAR better long arm than any 9mm carbine. Price isn't to steep, yet. Mags are still cheap.
AndrewWalkowiak
New member
Yep, it's ugly.
I like ugly. "Functional ugly" in guns anyway. Not in women though, there I prefer "functional beauty". Unfortunately that breaks down pretty quickly when it comes to taking out the trash, spiders, and cleaning the cat box.
I had an HK94A3 for a few years before selling it at a significant profit. It was nice, but heavy. Cheek weld to the collapsable stock rails was horrible. The fluted chamber was hard on brass, and if you tried any thin brass +p 9mm like the 124gr +p Cor-Bon, you were in for one bitch of a jam as it fire-forms to the chamber flutes and will require the attention of a mallet to remove. For the going price of one HK94 you could buy 10 Sub 2000's. And 30 round mags, for the S&W mag-well model at least can be found for as low as $13, as opposed to $50-90 for MP5/94 mags.
I doubt a case failure would actually break the Sub2000 open. The action is straight blowback with no locking on the bolt. A case failure would most likely just cycle the bolt, perhaps eject the magazine, and then create a stoppage as the next round tried to chamber if there was any brass still in the chamber and the mag stayed put.
The breech and barrel assembly is locked by a rather large cam that's retracted by the trigger gaurd. The bearing surface is pretty large. Lockup is extremely positive in every sample I've held. The solid polymer reciever of the Sub 2000 is probably far safer than the original 3-peice aluminum and hex-nut construction of the Sub9.
Even if it did break, the flat plastic of the fore-arm would be conking your noggin, not the front sight post.
I agree the M1 carbine is a great choice. I want one baaaaaaad myself.
But I keep coming back to the fact that the originator was interested in both ammo and magazine compatibility with his Beretta, and then the Kel-Tec is the only game in town, with the exception of custom gunsmiting on a Marlin Camp 9's mag well. He is also somewhat concerened with overpenetration and .30 carbine over 9mm won't help him there.
The Kel-Tec also has very reasonably priced factory accessories like an integrated fore-end light, and a spare buttstock mag-well for example.
I definitely agree that "wooden" PC looks could be an asset, but the folding Kel-Tec can be kept out of sight completely much more easily. Fits in mid-size cases that don't look like either a pistol or a rifle. In fact I carry mine to the range in a laptop bag. Makes for decent urban stealth.
Andrew
I like ugly. "Functional ugly" in guns anyway. Not in women though, there I prefer "functional beauty". Unfortunately that breaks down pretty quickly when it comes to taking out the trash, spiders, and cleaning the cat box.
I had an HK94A3 for a few years before selling it at a significant profit.
It was nice, but heavy. Cheek weld to the collapsable stock rails was horrible. The fluted chamber was hard on brass, and if you tried any thin brass +p 9mm like the 124gr +p Cor-Bon, you were in for one bitch of a jam as it fire-forms to the chamber flutes and will require the attention of a mallet to remove. For the going price of one HK94 you could buy 10 Sub 2000's. And 30 round mags, for the S&W mag-well model at least can be found for as low as $13, as opposed to $50-90 for MP5/94 mags.I doubt a case failure would actually break the Sub2000 open. The action is straight blowback with no locking on the bolt. A case failure would most likely just cycle the bolt, perhaps eject the magazine, and then create a stoppage as the next round tried to chamber if there was any brass still in the chamber and the mag stayed put.
The breech and barrel assembly is locked by a rather large cam that's retracted by the trigger gaurd. The bearing surface is pretty large. Lockup is extremely positive in every sample I've held. The solid polymer reciever of the Sub 2000 is probably far safer than the original 3-peice aluminum and hex-nut construction of the Sub9.
Even if it did break, the flat plastic of the fore-arm would be conking your noggin, not the front sight post.
I agree the M1 carbine is a great choice. I want one baaaaaaad myself.
But I keep coming back to the fact that the originator was interested in both ammo and magazine compatibility with his Beretta, and then the Kel-Tec is the only game in town, with the exception of custom gunsmiting on a Marlin Camp 9's mag well. He is also somewhat concerened with overpenetration and .30 carbine over 9mm won't help him there.
The Kel-Tec also has very reasonably priced factory accessories like an integrated fore-end light, and a spare buttstock mag-well for example.
I definitely agree that "wooden" PC looks could be an asset, but the folding Kel-Tec can be kept out of sight completely much more easily. Fits in mid-size cases that don't look like either a pistol or a rifle. In fact I carry mine to the range in a laptop bag. Makes for decent urban stealth.
Andrew