durability of S&W 66?

I

idek

New member
I've had a model 66 for a few weeks and have enjoyed shooting it, but have only shot 38 specials so far.

I've read conflicting reports on the gun's tolerance of .357 magnums. Some people say it won't hold up to heavy magnum use. Some say it handles most magnums well, but not to shoot a lot of bullets less than 158 grains. Others say the gun can handle a steady dose of anything without problems.

I'm interested if anyone has any personal knowledge about this issue is aware of any sort of objective test or research done with these guns.
 
K frame S&Ws are not built to withstand the constant pounding of lots (thousands) of .357 mag rounds (at least not as well as the heavier L frame, which was introduced I believe as a result of K frame issues). I think you would have to shoot a LOT of heavy loads to see a problem - most people shoot .38 specials much of the time and save the .357s for occasional use.

Hot, lightweight .357s (125 grain for instance) seem to exacerbate the issue of top strap erosion (at the area just above the gap between the cylinder and forcing cone), and this is not unique to the K frame Smiths.
 
The simple fact is that had the K frame magnums been up to handling frequent magnum loads the L frame would not have come into existence.

The thing will eventually "shoot loose" if you shoot full power loads through it regularly; the reason to go with the heavier bullets is to avoid top strap cutting, but even those will cause the lockup to loosen over time.

The advice I usually see given is to practice with .38spl loads, but shoot magnum loads sparingly.
 
That's the Interwebz Lore,,,

I too would like to see even one documented test of this problem,,,
It's not that I don't believe the problem is real,,,
I would simply like some empirical data.

On the anecdotal evidence side of the issue,,,
I have personally seen two model 19's with cracked forcing cones.

Doesn't make me not want a clean Model 19 or Model 66 though.

Aarond

.
 
The advice I usually see given is to practice with .38spl loads, but shoot magnum loads sparingly.
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Thats a bit extreme. I've researched this topic and I've found several parallels in the stories of K frame top strap cutting failures: Usually the model 19 for whatever reason, guns that were poorly maintained / infrequently cleaned AND 357 magnum 125 gr bullets.

So if you take your model 66, which already has a lower failure rate, and shoot say 158 gr magnums, and properly maintain it, it would take a thousands and thousands of rounds to "shoot it loose". The shoot loose issue could have been related to a few of these not being made properly or something because you hear and see more K frame 357s that are fine, and were fine thousands of rounds later than you do the failures. And as I said, the failures had the above things all in common.

The L frame has a thicker forcing cone at the 6 o clock spot, and a full underlug. A 6in L fame with the lug is actually is actually heavier than a 6 in N frame half lug (model 29-2 for example). I am not sure that the L frame had any different locking mechanisms or major changes there. The theory could have been that since its heavier, it is less prone to shooting loose.

If you use common sense / learn from the failures of others, I doubt you will have any problems with your K frame 66 or any other K frame 357 for that matter.

EDIT - I just read AaronDs post and I too can attest that I've "heard" of WAY more about the K frame 357 issues than I've seen in K frame 357 revolvers
 
Have owned this one 26 years,lots of 38's over the years. and only a box or two of 357's. It's one of my favorite pistols.
 

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I shoot 158gr bullets in .357 mag ...at 1150 - 1200 fps ....all the time. Its the load I prefer in that caliber and I shoot a lot of it in my K, L and N frame S&W's ....but you can get hotter 158gr bullets up around 1500 fps as well ...( vs the more traditional .38 spl, in 158gr , at around 750 - 800 fps).

My model 66's and 19's ...with many thousands of rounds thru them have no issues - but I do not shoot the much faster ...125gr bullets that some guys are pushing up around 1800 - 1900 fps.

I think as long as you shoot 158gr bullets ...even at max velocity for that bullet...your K frames will be just fine.
 
The best explanation of the issue that I've ever come across can be found here:

http://www.gunblast.com/Butch_MagnumLoads.htm

Bear in mind that, when the Combat Magnum (Pre-M19) was introduced, 158gr bullets were about all that was available commercially in .357 Magnum. Nearly all the reports that I've ever heard of chronic issues with the K-Frame Magnums come from the 1970's or later, which also happens to be the period of time in which the lighter, faster 110-125gr loadings were introduced and became popular. What I believe was basically happening was that the K-Frame Magnums were experiencing problems because they were being shot with ammunition they were never designed for. When the ammunition for which the K-Frames were designed, 158gr loadings, is used the problems seems to be far less common (not that they're all that common in the first place).

Now, many people cite the introduction of the L-Frame as proof that the K-Frames weren't up to sustained Magnum use. However, one must stop and realize what changes were made to the L-Frame. Many of the internal parts between the K-Frame and L-Frame are actually the same including the hammer, trigger, rebound slide, locking bolt, and cylinder stop. The primary difference is that the L-Frame had its cylinder window made taller in order to accommodate a thicker forcing cone that did not need the K-Frame's characteristic "flat spot" and thus alleviate the issues endemic to that area with continued use of lightweight magnums.

Furthermore, the smaller and lighter J-Frames have been successfully chambered for .357 Magnum for years now. While the J-Frames are lighter, their forcing cones are full-thickness for 360 degrees and better supported by the frame than those of the K-Frames (or any other S&W revolvers for that matter). If the K-Frame were not strong enough for continuous use of any .357 Magnum ammunition, I fail to understand how the smaller, lighter J-Frame could be (the light bullet issue notwithstanding).

So, in my estimation, a S&W 66 or any other K-Frame Magnum is plenty durable so long as you limit your use of .357 ammunition to that with bullets 140gr or heavier. My own personal M66-2 has digested almost exclusively .357 ammunition for about six years now. In that period of time, I would guess that I've probably shot, conservatively, a couple thousand rounds through the gun and it's still as tight as the day I bought it (it was purchased used). However, the .357 Magnum ammunition shot through my gun has been almost entirely factory 158gr loadings or equivalent handloads with 158gr LSWC bullets. I would estimate that, in the time I've owned it, my M66 has probably seen 100 rounds or less of lightweight magnums.
 
Shoot enough lot loads in any gun and you'll start seeing things tolerances open up and the gun getting more loose. Most people don't buy the 19/66 for it's stability to shoot massive amounts of hot .357 loads. If you plan on shooting mostly hot .357s, you will want an N frame. But I shoot moderate .357 loads in all of my 66s and it hasn't hurt them one bit. But I don't find a lot of pleasure shooting .357 loads out of 2.5" guns anyway, so it's not really a problem for me. I've got a 627 that I use for the HOT loads.
 
Aarond and Jim, thank you for the kind words.

Something else that probably bears mentioning is that I frequently hear/read that a gun will "shoot loose" but that is a rather generic term that can mean a few different things. What most people probably mean when they say that a revolver has been "shot loose" is that it's gone out of time. Timing issues are actually rarely related to the ammunition and more often a symptom of the type and amount of shooting that's done. The most common cause of a revolver being out of time is large amounts of hard, fast double action shooting. The areas of a revolver which are involved in timing are the hand, ratchet, cylinder stop, and cylinder stop notches. When a revolver is shot double action quickly and harshly, the hand slams against the ratchet harder and the cylinder stop slams against the cylinder stop notches harder thus wearing those areas more rapidly. The larger and heavier the cylinder of the revolver is, the more susceptible to timing problems it is and, in fact, the N-Frames with their relatively large and heavy cylinders are easier to shoot out of time than K-Frames are. Fortunately, re-timing a S&W revolver is a fairly easy repair for a competent gunsmith and isn't a particularly expensive job.

The second condition that people describe as "shooting loose" is the chronic backing out of sideplate screws and the ejector rod. This issue is most easily remedied by applying a drop of blue Loc-Tite to the offending threads.

The final and most serious, though fortunately least common, way that a revolver can "shoot loose" is for the frame to stretch. The primary symptom of this condition is excessive endshake when the revolver is a full lockup. If the frame stretching is only moderate, it can usually be remedied with the use of yoke and endshake shims and possibly resetting the barrel to reduce the barrel-to-cylinder gap. Fortunately, the only cases I've ever heard of in which a revolver frame was stretched beyond repair is when +P or +P+ ammunition is used in an aluminum-frame revolver that isn't rated for it.

Originally posted by Olympus
Shoot enough lot loads in any gun and you'll start seeing things tolerances open up and the gun getting more loose. Most people don't buy the 19/66 for it's stability to shoot massive amounts of hot .357 loads. If you plan on shooting mostly hot .357s, you will want an N frame. But I shoot moderate .357 loads in all of my 66s and it hasn't hurt them one bit. But I don't find a lot of pleasure shooting .357 loads out of 2.5" guns anyway, so it's not really a problem for me. I've got a 627 that I use for the HOT loads.
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While I think I know what you're saying, it would be helpful if you could specify exactly what you consider to be a "hot" load. Personally, I consider a normal factory 158gr .357 Magnum loading such as those produced by Remington, Federal, Winchester, Hornady, and Speer to be "full power" but not particularly "hot". What I consider to be a truly "hot" load are those that push the cartridge to the very ragged edge such as that available from boutique manufacturers like Buffalo Bore, Grizzly, and Double Tap or analogous handloads. In that respect, I agree that "hot" loads are best used in a larger gun like an N-Frame, though I personally prefer to step up to a larger caliber like .41 Magnum or .44 Magnum if I need more power than what a "full power" .357 Magnum can deliver.
 
In addition, IMO the 66 is one of the better all around 357s you could have. Here is my first year production 66 with original SS rear sight. One of my favorite revolvers.

SW663.jpg
 
Well, since Winchester 73 set the precedent (and who doesn't like pictures anyway), here's a photo of my M66-2 which is also one of my regular carry guns:

BuffaloSabresGame72.jpg
 
Nice gun webley. I want a 19/66 snub, the only problem is, I don't want to pay for it. I also want a 66 3 in gun. Good luck is all I need. :p
 
Nice gun webley. I want a 19/66 snub, the only problem is, I don't want to pay for it. I also want a 66 3 in gun. Good luck is all I need.
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I was lucky enough to get mine before K-Frame Magnum prices started climbing too much. However, there are still a couple of guns that I kick myself for not buying when I had the chance such as a mint 4" M13 for $300 that I stupidly passed on:(
 
Its amazing what 13/65s are these days. Another neat one would be one of the 357 model 10s that IIRC NYPD ordered? Do you know about them? They were the predecessor the model 13? I never saw one.
 
I consider the regular .357 ammo from Winchester, Remington, etc to be middle of the road in terms of power. I figure that they err on the side of caution when charging their ammo. Large companies have large insurance policies and I imagine they play it safe with their charges. I consider Buffalo Bore and Double Tap to be "hot" loads in terms of commercially available ammo. Sure hotter loads can be had by handloading, but not everyone is a reloader so I didn't mean that specifically.

And I ALWAYS play the 66 picture game. Here are two of my no-dash Model 66s. One of which is a PD gun. :cool:

PA300053.jpg
 
Its amazing what 13/65s are these days. Another neat one would be one of the 357 model 10s that IIRC NYPD ordered? Do you know about them? They were the predecessor the model 13? I never saw one.
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It's not just the M13 and 65, all K-Frame Magnums and even some non-magnums like a 3" M10 have gone up 75-100% in my area over the last few years. As to the .357 M10's, I've heard of them but I've never seen so much as a photo much less one in person. While I enjoy my M66 and other adjustable-sight S&W's immensely, I have lately had a strange desire for fixed-sight Magnums, particularly a 3" M13 and a M58.
 
I too want a 58. Did you see Lee Jarrett is auctioning off a few?

GB user noconeetrader

He actually has a nickel one and a blued one. Also a 520, and a RM, and a NON RM and and and....well you gotta check it out lol

Hes the owner/moderator for the S&W forum
 
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