I recently picked up a Beretta to replace a Witness I was having problems with. Ive been hearing some horror stories about the pistol. A cop I shoot with claims he has to replace his locking block after every 4k rounds. I read an article in some gun mag about Navy SEALS having the slides of their weapons launch themselves back off the frame toward the shooter. I keep having visions of the slide flying off and planting itself in my forehead(unlikely, I know). Quite a few people at my local range as well as a gun smith in my local shop all swear the Beretta wont last past 30,000 rounds. Thats only about 2 years of shooting for me, and I plan on keeping this pistol. Can anyone shade some light on theses rumors for me, or at least point me in the direction of some reliable info?
Durability of Beretta 92F?
- Thread starter Ryan
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The Navy guns failed because they were using hotter SMG ammo in them. I don't think any normal 9mm pistol would survive a sustained diet of hotter ammo. The firm, Phrobis designed a slightly heavier slide for a longer life span.
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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
I have 5 Beretta 92's one of wich is the M9 and I have no complaints except with the slide mounted saftey (I like frame mounted). I've shot roughly 40K of NATO 124gr. ammo and about 25K of commercial pressure 115gr. with one 92F and have had no problems what so ever with it, runs like a champ. One of my oldest 92F's has some mild frame peening but it fired around 60K of some pretty mean reloads before it had it's original stock spring replaced. I find them extremely reliable and accurate. FWIW
Hiker
Hiker
I think the Beretta has been unfairly treated for too long.
The original Berettas submitted for trials to the military did experiance the failures mentioned but the problems were corrected to create the M9 (92F) we have today. Besides strenghtening of the frame and slide, safeties were installed to prevent injury to the shooter should a failure occur.
I think most of the stories we hear about the Berettas failings come from "old-timers." Some people can't stand the fact that an Italian gun in a nato cartridge replaced the good ol' .45 1911. Many of the complaints I heard came about before the trials even began! I understand their feelings but I think the attacks on the gun itself are unfounded.
I have abused my 92's for all they're worth and I can't get them to break or fail. (This may sound irresponsible, but I have an early 92F I use as my reloading test gun that I havn't cleaned for at least 3000 rounds. It still goes bang every time). I've shot thousands of rounds of SMG ammo and other +P+ stuff and the Beretta eats it up and asks for more. Your milage may vary, but I don't think you'll find a more reliable or durable gun than the 92F. My humble two cents.
The original Berettas submitted for trials to the military did experiance the failures mentioned but the problems were corrected to create the M9 (92F) we have today. Besides strenghtening of the frame and slide, safeties were installed to prevent injury to the shooter should a failure occur.
I think most of the stories we hear about the Berettas failings come from "old-timers." Some people can't stand the fact that an Italian gun in a nato cartridge replaced the good ol' .45 1911. Many of the complaints I heard came about before the trials even began! I understand their feelings but I think the attacks on the gun itself are unfounded.
I have abused my 92's for all they're worth and I can't get them to break or fail. (This may sound irresponsible, but I have an early 92F I use as my reloading test gun that I havn't cleaned for at least 3000 rounds. It still goes bang every time). I've shot thousands of rounds of SMG ammo and other +P+ stuff and the Beretta eats it up and asks for more. Your milage may vary, but I don't think you'll find a more reliable or durable gun than the 92F. My humble two cents.
A fellow who runs a "rent-a-gun" range near here showed me a literal handfull of Beretta locking blocks broken during firing with factory ammo (he doesn't allow handloads because of possible backstop damage).
All were made in the US; he says the Italian guns have not had this problem. While this was only a year ago, some of the blocks dated back severl years, so it is possible that this was a "startup" problem for Beretta USA, and has since been corrected.
All were made in the US; he says the Italian guns have not had this problem. While this was only a year ago, some of the blocks dated back severl years, so it is possible that this was a "startup" problem for Beretta USA, and has since been corrected.
I have a Beretta 92FS. First what is the difference in the 92FS and the 92F?
As far as durability, would the Army adopt a gun that wasn't durable? Or rugged? As far as the Navy Seals go, whoever said they were shooting +p+ ammo was right. I was looking at a website for US miliary pistols, and it said they(SEALS) were using ammo that had TWICE as much pressure as is reccomended. I wouldn't doubt what other pistols would have blown apart by the first reload.
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Don't turn around, uh oh oh, der kommisar is in town, uh oh oh!
As far as durability, would the Army adopt a gun that wasn't durable? Or rugged? As far as the Navy Seals go, whoever said they were shooting +p+ ammo was right. I was looking at a website for US miliary pistols, and it said they(SEALS) were using ammo that had TWICE as much pressure as is reccomended. I wouldn't doubt what other pistols would have blown apart by the first reload.
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Don't turn around, uh oh oh, der kommisar is in town, uh oh oh!
BrokenArrow
New member
OK, here we go...
Slide fractures. 6 in the field about 12 in T&E, 18 total, none since 91. 4 w the SEALs, 2 w the Army, the rest in lab T&E.
It was a combo of bad ammo and bad weapon maintenance. Early mil-spec ammo had some stuff way over pressure (over 50K psi! +P+ is 38K, NATO up to 40K or so.) and the SEALs were playing w 158 handloads that were waaaay hot too. Kept breaking blocks, kept on shooting, duh! OTOH, the lab T&E guns shot the normal mil-spec stuff, and some of then broke as low as 2K rounds, but a lot of that was over pressure stuff(the army was measuring pressure at the muzzle, not the chamber? duh again!)
IF the locking block fails, and IF you continue to fire the gun, the slide will fracture. Don't fire it a lot w a broken block, and you should be OK. You will know the block is broke cuzz the gun will start to jam a lot; replace it within the next 500 rounds and you are OK.
If you think you have damaged/cracked the slide do the "bell check". Hang the slide from your finger by the fwd part that the guide rod slides into and tap the slide with the guide rod; if it rings like a bell or hums like a tuning fork its OK; if it goes clunk, it is cracked somewhere (does not apply to other guns BTW). Quick, easy, works as well as expensive magna-fluxing.
The 92Fs has an oversize hammer pin that acts to retain the slide should it fail.
In latest mil-spec T&E the M9s are avging 20K for locking blocks, 35K for frames, 55K for slides, 55-75K for barrels with mil-spec ammo, same as +P+. With std pressure stuff they go a lot more; know of many that have over 100K through them, and plenty of blocks that have gone over 50K. Blocks and barrel lugs were strenghtened again in 93.
Since the probs in the late 80s, the military has bought over 100K more M9s and the French police and military (along w others) switched to them; I guess they think they are OK now?
NYPDs EST says they broke a lot of blocks, but LAPD/LASO don't have that problem. YMMV?
It's at least as tough as any other alloy framed auto out there, and I would say a tad tougher than the SIG (I have lots of experience w both the M9/M11 BTW). It's not 1911, Glock, or USP tough, but more than tough enough enough? If ya need more, buy two.
Much ado about nothing, don't worry about it.
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[This message has been edited by BrokenArrow (edited July 16, 1999).]
Slide fractures. 6 in the field about 12 in T&E, 18 total, none since 91. 4 w the SEALs, 2 w the Army, the rest in lab T&E.
It was a combo of bad ammo and bad weapon maintenance. Early mil-spec ammo had some stuff way over pressure (over 50K psi! +P+ is 38K, NATO up to 40K or so.) and the SEALs were playing w 158 handloads that were waaaay hot too. Kept breaking blocks, kept on shooting, duh! OTOH, the lab T&E guns shot the normal mil-spec stuff, and some of then broke as low as 2K rounds, but a lot of that was over pressure stuff(the army was measuring pressure at the muzzle, not the chamber? duh again!)
IF the locking block fails, and IF you continue to fire the gun, the slide will fracture. Don't fire it a lot w a broken block, and you should be OK. You will know the block is broke cuzz the gun will start to jam a lot; replace it within the next 500 rounds and you are OK.
If you think you have damaged/cracked the slide do the "bell check". Hang the slide from your finger by the fwd part that the guide rod slides into and tap the slide with the guide rod; if it rings like a bell or hums like a tuning fork its OK; if it goes clunk, it is cracked somewhere (does not apply to other guns BTW). Quick, easy, works as well as expensive magna-fluxing.
The 92Fs has an oversize hammer pin that acts to retain the slide should it fail.
In latest mil-spec T&E the M9s are avging 20K for locking blocks, 35K for frames, 55K for slides, 55-75K for barrels with mil-spec ammo, same as +P+. With std pressure stuff they go a lot more; know of many that have over 100K through them, and plenty of blocks that have gone over 50K. Blocks and barrel lugs were strenghtened again in 93.
Since the probs in the late 80s, the military has bought over 100K more M9s and the French police and military (along w others) switched to them; I guess they think they are OK now?
NYPDs EST says they broke a lot of blocks, but LAPD/LASO don't have that problem. YMMV?
It's at least as tough as any other alloy framed auto out there, and I would say a tad tougher than the SIG (I have lots of experience w both the M9/M11 BTW). It's not 1911, Glock, or USP tough, but more than tough enough enough? If ya need more, buy two.
Much ado about nothing, don't worry about it.
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[This message has been edited by BrokenArrow (edited July 16, 1999).]
I have to agree that the 92F is very reliable. I bought mine used a couple of years ago from a LEO and it has had the guts shot out of it. I have only fired a few thousand rounds through it, but the preivous owner fired many thousand and this gun has never had a failure.
I suspect that much of what you hear about the 92's is akin to all the M-16 bashing that still goes on due to the rifles problems in the Viet-Nam days. I have shot tens of thousand of rounds through M-16's and AR-15's and have had very few malfunctions and never had a weapon failure. Yet, I run into people all the time that profess that the black rifle is a jaming, breaking P.O.S.
I suspect that much of what you hear about the 92's is akin to all the M-16 bashing that still goes on due to the rifles problems in the Viet-Nam days. I have shot tens of thousand of rounds through M-16's and AR-15's and have had very few malfunctions and never had a weapon failure. Yet, I run into people all the time that profess that the black rifle is a jaming, breaking P.O.S.
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