Dumb newbie question about .357 blast

Z

ZoneIII

Inactive
I'm almost embarrassed to ask this question. At 55, I just got back into shooting two years ago after many years so please excuse my ignorance....

I have read posts here that refer to the tremendous muzzle blast of hot 125 grain .357 loads and that they can be hard on guns and very hard on ears and eyes. Why is it that the "hot" loads with the most powerful blast are with the lighter bullets? (Or is that the case?) I would intuitively think that a 158 grain load that has a MV of, say, 1,500 fps (like original .357 factory loadings) would have more muzzle blast than a 125 grain bullet leaving the barrel at the same speed...in other words, all else being equal. But from what I have read on some of these forums, the biggest blast is from the 125 grain bullets. If that is the case, why is it so?

Thanks. I'm new here and these are some of the best forums of their kind I have seen. Very informative and very knowledgeable people! I will probably have some other dumb questions in the future.


By way of introduction, I shot quite a bit as a boy but not as an adult. Three years ago, I was planning a solo canoe trip of the Mississippi River from the headwaters in Minnesota to the Gulf of Mexico. After having read a couple books by people who did that trip, I considered taking a gun for protection since the authors of those books ran into trouble and one had to shoot it out twice. Other people also recommended that I take a gun. Well, that's all I needed because I had an itch to start shooting again anyway. To me, guns are not only fun to shoot, but they are beautiful pieces of craftsmanship - at least some of them are. The gun I got for the trip was a Smith & Wesson .40 semi-auto. Nothing fancy. That was fun to shoot so I then picked up a Ruger .22 Single Six "Baby Vaquero" for more fun. I liked that so I then got a .45LC Vaquero. Then my 95 year-old father gave me his nickel plated Colt 1911 (circa 1918) and a couple .22 rifles. I then added a .357 GP100 with a 5" barrel in SS. I'm having a ball now but I caught the disease..... :) I almost hate walking through a gun shop because I want one of everything! I think my next guns will be a .44M SBH and a rifle. My son is an ex-Marine rated expert and he shoots a .308 Model 70 Winchester in competition and I would like to shoot with him.

More boring stuff... I'm a retired engineer and a large format photographer. You know....big old cameras made of wood, brass, and leather with the sheet over your head. Equipment that is as beautiful as fine guns. I shoot mostly with 8x10" film. My wife and I travel by car extensively and I find some of the gun laws to be ridiculously restrictive. I like to take my guns along to plink with but some states and cities treat you as if you are a mass-murderer for just transporting a gun. We spent some time in Maine earlier this summer and some states that we passed through, like Massachusetts, New York, etc., have such restrictive gun laws that it would seem that the only people who would have guns are criminals. In New York, for example, the law would presume that I was an illegal arms dealer if I carried my five guns, unloaded, with no ammunition in the car, and locked in cases in my rooftop carrier. It's ridiculous! In fact, after reading the various gun laws for the states I would be passing through, I decided to just leave my guns home.

I apologize for rambling.
 
ZIII, welcome to a fine forum.

Your question isn't at all foolish; you are certainly right that a 158 grain bullet travelling 1500 fps would make as much sound and fury as a 125 or lighter bullet going the same speed. The only reason the 125's got their reputation as flash/bang monsters was that noone loads the 158's that hot anymore. It may have been the original factory load, but it didn't stay that way for long (I've also heard it suggested that chrono technology wasn't everything back then that it is today, and maybe even the original loads weren't as hot as the original loads, if you know what I mean).

A more normal factory load these days for a 158 grain bullet is 1250 or so; and they are decidedly less flashy than the old 125's. There's a good argument to be made that the 125's are not needed these days; the lighter, faster bullets were initially introduced to get reliable expansion with reasonable recoil (more reasonable than the fast 158's); but bullet design has come some way since the super-vel of the 60's, and a 158 grain Gold Dot doesn't need to go 1500 fps to get excellent penetration and expansion. The standard load of 1250 is probably more than adequate for most anti-personel uses. Four legged critters are a whole nuther question.

If you want to find some ammo that meets the old-time standard, you might try a precious box of THIS stuff from buffalobore. You could run a comparative test through your GP and enlighten us all!
 
It boils down to two things.
The 125 grain loading have lighter bullets and heavier powder charges.
They move a bit faster too, than the 158 grain loads.
Notice that there really wasnt much problem with forcing cone erosion and such until many PDs started switching to the 125 grain loading AND practicing with full power ammo.
Much of the statistics for the original .357 loading came from 8 inch barrelled N frames and for that matter, unvented test barrels.
That stuff was hotter than the 158 grain loads of today, but it was not as hot as it was claimed back then, if you fired it from a six inch revolver.
 
Chris,

Thanks for the great info.

I am thinking about getting into reloading - especially for my .45LC. The author of a reloading manual that I bought says that it is impossible, even with today's powders and components to even approach the power of the original factory loads (which he claims were an honest MV of 1,500 ft/sec with 158 gr. bullets. That got me wondering too and I posted a question about why that would be in the Ruger Forum. I got answers but I still don't really understand why it would be impossible to duplicate the original .357 load performance. Don't we have even more powders today?

That said, I have no interest in duplicating those loads. I was just curious. However, I do want to try some powerful loads just for the fun. Someone recommended a hot factoryround made by Armscor. It's cheap and he said it was fun to shoot occasionally. Just for the heck of it, I bought a few boxes. From what the guy who recommended them told me, I'm almost afraid to shoot them...lol They are 125 gr semi-jacketed flat-nose rounds with a published MV of 1775 ft/sec! The guy who recommended them said they have fierce muzzle flash and can bash your forehead in....lol Well, I'll give them a try for the fun of it but probably at an outdoor range.

I know that Buffalo Bore makes full-power loads too and, in fact, I have been thinking about ordering some in .45LC because I am in bear country quite a bit and that would be the best load that I could carry for the guns that I own now. When I do order some, I report back on my experiences with it.
 
I still don't really understand why it would be impossible to duplicate the original .357 load performance.
Click to expand...

I don't think it would be impossible; but nobody will load that commercially because of liability concerns and because of the diversity of 357's available now. Remember that that original load was made for an N-frame S&W; the same frame as was later found adequate for the original .44 mag. Now, I've got a 357 that's basically made of aluminum and other spacecraft materials and weighs 12 ounces. Anyone who loads and sells ammunition that will fit in my gun has to assume I'm stupid enough to try and shoot it out of my gun; so things are limited for you by my potential stupidity.

Lots of folks push well beyond published data in platforms in which they feel it is prudent to do so. That's something to be ventured only by experienced reloaders, however--those who can recognize that little sliver of territory between max published loads and blown up guns. :eek:
 
Thanks Chris. Actually, the reloading manual that I mention says that the reloader can't come close to even approaching original factory loads.

As far as I know, Buffalo Arms does load .357 ammo that is as powerful as original factory loads that is safe to shoot.

Don't get me wrong.... I have no desire to go around pushing any limits. I just wanted to experience (safely, of course) what full-power .357 loads are like. I would not shoot it regularly by any means. The same applies to heavy .45LC loads. The only other reason I would like to use them would be as bear protection. Other than that, I would have no use for those heavy loads. My question was really triggered by the statement made by the author of the reloading manual that I mentioned previously. But my original question (that started this thread) was about why hot 125 grain loads have so much blast as people in some threads have suggested. From reading several threads here, it seemed that the hot 125 gr. 357 loads had more blast than hot 158 grain loads with equal MV. That didn't make sense to me so I just wanted to clarify it out of curiosity.
 
Yes, but:

I've got a 357 that's basically made of aluminum and other spacecraft materials
Click to expand...

And the one company that's making 357 this potent specifies that it's only for use in steel guns; so they're actually the exception that proves my rule ;)
 
Nope, Chris, your statement was just plain wrong--there is commercial .357 Magnum ammunition loaded to original specs. :)

It's not unsafe to shoot it in your substandard .357, but the bullets could jump their crimp creating a reliability problem.

If you really want a .357 Magnum you should stick to steel. If you want "aluminum and other spacecraft materials," you should stick to .38 Specials. You are right in that companies who manufacture substandard .357 handguns (and the people who buy them) have led to a general decline of the available loads. ;)
 
Blasts can come in 158 too!

I fired my first centerfire revolver twenty years ago without any advice or experience. I had gotten a 357 Taurus and sprung for a box of full power red/white box magnum Federal 158's. Having no idea what to expect, I was impressed with that load! Then I got a Lee loader and carfully assembled loads that were about equal to 38's with that little yellow scoop. Was happy plinking at that level. The factory rounds were too expensive on a GI salary anyway. Guess those above are right, they probably just pack the empty space with more powder in a 125, just to get the last nth of velocity. I prefer Silvertips 140's myself and have one unfired box of the Fed 125's from ten years ago. One really good way to impress yourself is to fire the Win. police only +P+ .38 110 gr.rounds in a snubbie. Made my ears ring outdoors even with ear protection!
 
Juliet:

You are right. You made the point that there IS commercially available full power .357 ammo available and you are correct.

If I'm not mistaken, CorBon makes some full-power .357 ammo too. So it most definitely IS available commercially.
 
Last summer I got a BUNCH (15+ boxes) of this 125 gr. hot ammo from my father-in-law. It was the most fun I've ever had at the range...hooked me on the .357 (yep, I had an N-frame Model 28-2 four inch).

I am getting ready to re-load for .38 Special and .357 and was curious after reading this thread...why would I not be able to duplicate this awsome ammo? And why would I stay away from it using a nice solid Model 27 or 28?

Those LOUD bangs and GREAT flashes were what drove me to buy dies. I could not believe the low recoil with these loads...what FUN!!

Anyone?

Thanks.

Bob
 
VonFatman:

So, you like fireworks, eh?

Then, two phrases come to mind:

Hodgdon H110 (or, WW296) powder,

and 125 grain or 140 grain JHP's.

I use the powder above for .44 Magnum. 27.0 grains under a 180 grain Sierra JHP, oh yeah!!
 
When I was younger I thought that the lighter bullets got out of the barrel so fast that there was a bunch of still burning and/or unburned powder left to make a good flash.

Now? I just shoot and don't think so much. :o

John
 
The muzzle blast from the light weight bullets and shorter barrels, comes from the fact that quit a bit of power actually does not burn in the barrel - but outside of the muzzle - after the bullet leaves the barrel. This causes a second expolsion, well - more like an extended explosion and giant fireball. The hot gases leave the barrel at about 4,000 fps, blows all all the unburnt power around and then ignites it.

Great fun at bowling pin matches, where everybody else is trying to "time" their shots between yours.

My most fun load is 17 grs. of compressed blue-dot under a 110 grain bullet out of a 2 inch ported snub with laser-grips. Hits the pins and bothers the competition. Out of a six inch barrel the pins sometimes vaporize if they are wet (we had a water trap under the backstop). PLEASE DO NOT USE MY LOAD IN YOUR GUN - be safe.

10" inch contenter = 2,070 fps
6" inch 686 = 1,710 fps

Elliot
 
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