Down The Slippery Slope

Status
Not open for further replies.

alan

New member
Dave Kopel banner
All the Way Down the Slippery Slope:
Gun Prohibition in England and Some Lessors for Civil Liberties in America

Joseph E. Olson[1] and David B. Kopel[2]

22 Hamline Law Review 399 (1999). PDF version. More by Kopel on U.K. gun control.

I'm not certain whether or not the above has appeared here before. If I'm repeating things, please bear with me.

In any event, re the history of gun control in Great Britain, often mentioned by some as something we should copy here, take a moment or two, likely more, and read through the above referenced title, it's longish. Reading through the above referenced might give you some ideas.
 
Alan, the article wasn't linked and I don't have the time to search for it right now, so I haven't read it. But let me say this, and I've recently said it on these forums. I have no interest in comparing the U.S. to the UK or any other country, especially on gun control. The U.S. is unique. We have the 2A. We're better than other countries in a lot of ways. If someone thinks the UK or any other country is better, let them go live there. If someone doesn't like our constitution, they can go live under another one if they think it's better. We're not Norway or Australia or anywhere else. We're the USA.
 
Here is a link to it: http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/SlipperySlope.htm - you can read the HTML version there.

But if you click where it says "PDF version" it takes you to:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=149029

Please note I did not check out whether the pdf is free or not, but the link from Kopel's page seems legit - he is one of the authors.

Note that Amazon lists a Kindle edition of it for $2. That is what raised the question in my mind.

I read the piece back in 1999 when it was new, and it is worth your time.
 
Very interesting article.. since history isn't one of my more knowledgeable subjects, I found it both educational, enlightening, and even entertaining on an intellectual level.

Gotta say, it took me a sandwich and two cups of tea to get through the entire thing.

I'd like to see what would happen when that is handed in as the Massachusetts gun permit essay!
 
Plagiarism is not a viable option, but I suppose if one wrote a brief synopsis and gave proper attribution to the original source, that could fly.

But I think a "gun permit essay" could be simpler and more direct - something like, "I'm too young to die, too old to fight an armed or disparately-large attacker bare-handed, have a right to self defense (and the tools thereof), and will not shoot anyone who is is not outright trying to kill or permanently maim me."

What I take from the piece (and thanks Alan for the original post) is that the struggle to retain freedom (of thought, of action, of self-defense) is never-ending; that there is always a part of society that wants all the power and will promise to protect everyone from all ills if granted that power; and that there will always be folks who fall for that line, give up their rights, and be 'shocked' when the promise is broken.

I do, however, take some comfort in the fact that the gun-banners have been active since before I bought my first firearm in 1970 and net, they are behind. We have more guns, better guns, concealed carry, and more support from the general public (I think but can't prove) than ever before. Not a good idea to get complacent, but also not time to throw one's hands up in despair that the confiscators just won't quit.
 
What I take from the piece (and thanks Alan for the original post) is that the struggle to retain freedom (of thought, of action, of self-defense) is never-ending; that there is always a part of society that wants all the power and will promise to protect everyone from all ills if granted that power; and that there will always be folks who fall for that line, give up their rights, and be 'shocked' when the promise is broken.

I would agree completely. Now if we compare that message to what's happening here in the USA with the anti-gun crowd, I don't see that it applies in the same way.

The whole "camels nose" message certainly applies.. but I'm not so sure about the power hungry motivations.

The modern anti-gun rhetoric isn't coming from the government, its coming from the people.. Mostly, from what I see, frightened and panicked mother bears looking to protect their cubs and using the threat of their votes to influence law makers.

The anti-gun logic streaming from them isn't sound reasoning, but the threat of their votes sure is.
 
The anti-gunners are behind in some things, and far ahead in others. They are one or two Justice appointments away from a packed SCOTUS that will gut the Bill of Rights, not just the 2nd Amendment. They also have 50 years of conditioning of the public through media and educational systems to agree with the concept of confiscation, registration, and outright bans, something they did not have in the 1960s. Now they have one of the two national political parties openly campaigning on an Australian ban and confiscation platform, and the other party is sitting astride the fence wondering which way the political wind should blow them. A change in Congressional seating and a White House win will empower the gun banners to try their luck.
 
"We just want to register your guns, not confiscate them."

Right, like in the UK and Australia?

"Guns are evil! They have no place in civil society! There are plenty of other options for self defense that aren't so single-purpose."

Sure, like knives? Look at how public carry of knives is treated in the UK-- any knife that is good for self defense is essentially illegal. https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives (note the caveat that locking folders are not classified as folding knives)

Or pepper spray in Denmark? Danes are travelling to Germany to buy it.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...-spraying-rapefugee-worlds-best-country-women

The ideology of regulating or banning things—because in "civil society" they're not needed—will end up calling for a ban on anything useful for self defense; anything useful for self defense is also potentially useful for offense.

It's not about guns. It's about an ideology that wants to reduce us to non-tool-users in the realm of self defense, regardless of the fact that attackers will usually not play by the same rules regardless of how strict the laws are. Tool-weapons are seen either as inherently evil or as indicative of unhealthy state of mind.
 
They are one or two Justice appointments away from a packed SCOTUS that will gut the Bill of Rights, not just the 2nd Amendment. They also have 50 years of conditioning of the public through media and educational systems to agree with the concept of confiscation, registration, and outright bans, something they did not have in the 1960s.

I don't believe that the majority of the public even realize that truth.

The modern anti-gun rhetoric isn't coming from the government, its coming from the people.

I disagree. The 'government', or at least that portion that is pushing so hard for gun control is doing so with no regard for the majority of the people, or the wishes of that majority. Though there are those individuals in our society who are victims of 50 years of conditioning, no fault of their own, they are still not yet in the majority.
 
I disagree. The 'government', or at least that portion that is pushing so hard for gun control is doing so with no regard for the majority of the people, or the wishes of that majority.

Seems to me, the politicians tend to do whatever they need in order to get people to vote for them.

Trying to enact gun control when a majority of people don't want it seems like a bad career move to me. Since most politicians seem to be more interested in their careers than anything else, it doesn't add up.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that your take on it doesn't make sense as I see it.

Though there are those individuals in our society who are victims of 50 years of conditioning, no fault of their own, they are still not yet in the majority.
I would agree with that..
Some of those people have been conditioned for over 2000 years to think in certain ways. Education may be one of the more effective tools to battle long term conditioning.. Is it a coincidence that are educational system is getting worse and worse?
 
You MurBob are absolutely right, it certainly doesn't add up. Yet our federal government continues to push. A handful of states unfortunately are pushing right along with them and stripping their residents of their freedoms, but only a handful.

Try researching some topics and see what you find regarding the actions of many states to relax gun laws in spite of that push on a federal level. What do you suppose is the motivator in that?

Research recent actions taken in the form of laws passed on the state level to specifically protect themselves from federal regulations which would restrict the 2nd amendment within that state.

If you'll take some time and do a little research on your own, you'll probably be pretty surprised at what you do actually find.

That is the power and beauty of the internet, we don't have to rely on mainstream media and accept the misinformation, the truth is much easier for us to find, though we do have to still be careful what we accept as truth.
 
Last edited:
The modern anti-gun rhetoric isn't coming from the government, its coming from the people.. Mostly, from what I see, frightened and panicked mother bears looking to protect their cubs and using the threat of their votes to influence law makers.

You are seeing those "mother bears" because that is what is being shown to you. They call it "speaking for the victims" I call it "dancing in the blood of the innocent".

The "push" is not coming from the government, as a whole, it comes from individuals IN government, with personal anti-gun agendas. Study the history, its plain to see certain individuals, holding office, who have pushed for gun control, as the saying goes "in good times and in bad".

They are always there after every gun involved tragedy, with new bills ALREADY WRITTEN OUT, within hours. They push gun control when there is no public outcry for it, as well as when there is.

These people are in a different class than the politicians who support gun control when they think the majority of their constituents support more gun control.

Trying to enact gun control when a majority of people don't want it seems like a bad career move to me. Since most politicians seem to be more interested in their careers than anything else, it doesn't add up.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that your take on it doesn't make sense as I see it.

The reason it doesn't seem to add up is that you are only looking at the short term. They aren't. Or at least the leadership of the movement isn't. If you look at a number of the legislators who make gun control one of their personal crusade, you see they are often multi term, with very politically secure districts.

They are "safe" from the threat of not being re-elected either because the majority of their district actually agrees with them, or because the people of their districts benefit enough in other ways that they put up with the "gun control nonsense". Some of these folks come from families with generations of office holding, pushing these same "family values". They behave as if they are blood nobility, with a moral duty to "protect" the lesser folk from themselves.

And on the subject of protection, take gun control to the desired end of those politicians. NO guns in the hands of anyone other than government (military & police, or "approved" private security).

This is the ultimate job security for a politician. Bottom line, if they refuse to leave office, what are you going to do? Hope their court will uphold our rights?

It might happen...but if not, (or if the politicians disregard the court??) the options come down acceptance of the "new order" and our place in it, OR active resistance, which has a much lower chance of success when the public is disarmed.
 
Well, at least here in Michigan, the anti-gunners are losing.

As of Jan 2016, we are no longer required to go in front of a board and make our case for why we want a cpl permit.

We simply take the class, take the papers to the clerks office, and we get our permit. I think there's another background check in there somewhere but not sure where and I also think we have to be fingerprinted.

So the anti-gunners are certainly losing here.. Eliminating the board interview was a huge step...
 
You're right Murbob, and from another perspective you're wrong. Not having to appear in front of a board and be interviewed is a huge step. However, the whole premise of having to obtain a permit to exercise a freedom that you are already granted by our constitution is wrong to begin with. So minus the interview is less of an infringement, but less of an infringement that is already in place.
 
Last edited:
You're right Murbob, and from another perspective you're wrong. Not having to appear in front of a board and be interviewed is a huge step. However, the whole premise of having to obtain a permit to exercise a freedom that you are already granted by our constitution is wrong to begin with. So minus the interview is less of an infringement, but less of an infringement that is already in place.

I'm not crazy that they make us register our guns, I think its wrong as its none of their business what anyone has in their own home.

But I do not have an issue with a permit to carry a weapon in public.

I think what someone has or does in their own home is not anyone's business.

However, when someone's business goes out into the public where it can cause instant and irreparable damage to others, then I want to know that person is qualified enough to carry that responsibility.

I understand your line in the sand is at a different point than mine, but trust me when I say it has nothing to do with me being "conditioned" or brainwashed by the media or anything of the sort.

I think this might just boil down to a difference you and I have on our assessment of the level of responsibility or common sense the average person has. I'll be upfront about it, mine might be lower than yours. If it is, I wonder if age has something to do with it.
 
The most subtle (and effective) conditioning is the kind you don't even realize exists.

trust me when I say it has nothing to do with me being "conditioned" or brainwashed by the media or anything of the sort.

that you are aware of....

consider this...

I want to know that person is qualified enough to carry that responsibility.

Why?

What are you going to be able to do about it? Worry.

Nothing else.

Qualified and unqualified, legal and illegal carry happens around us every day. It's not something you or I can change. But aren't we conditioned to worry about it? Isn't that fear a useful tool for those pushing an agenda they call "safety"?

There's a lot of money, and power in fear. Get people worrying about something, offer them a "solution", be convincing (especially if its a lie) and you will have supporters.

How do we reach our opinions? Are we convinced, or conditioned? A bit of both, for many people I think. For some, its more than a bit...
 
The most subtle (and effective) conditioning is the kind you don't even realize exists.
...amen

MurBob, according to federal law they don't currently make us register our guns. Though I've an idea that we're not being told the whole truth regarding how information obtained through the NCIS system is handled in the end.

Honestly I can completely understand your not having an issue with people having to ask permission by obtaining a permit in order to carry a concealed firearm in public. Understanding it and agreeing with it are two different things. My line in the sand is where our constitution firmly places it, but please don't presume that I hold a high level of confidence or faith in the amount of common sense that the average person has, or their sense of responsibility, I assure you that I do not.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I am curious how you think that age might possibly effect the differences in our opinions?
 
MurBob, according to federal law they don't currently make us register our guns.
After my wife purchased her 9mm Shield, she was told she had ( 10?) days to take some piece of paper to the local police station.

What is that all about??

When I bought my Beretta twenty years ago, I had to take the whole weapon to the police station.

We purchased the Shield at the local gun shop but I got my Beretta from a local gun show... maybe there's a difference in that, I don't know... But either way, the cops got paperwork.....
They can call it whatever they want.. I call it a registration.

The age comment. Older people and younger people frequently have different views on various things. Age brings experience, unfortunately, it also brings tradition and the conditioning mentioned above.
Due to technology, our young can frequently amass more knowledge in a shorter time, but they also lack the all important experience.
Obviously there's no hard rules here, but its a recipe for conflicting views.
 
After my wife purchased her 9mm Shield, she was told she had ( 10?) days to take some piece of paper to the local police station.

What is that all about??

It's about your LOCAL laws. (state level and below).

Several states have handgun registration laws. Many do not.

There is no FEDERAL registration requirement, other than the 4473 form filled out by the FFL dealer. And those forms are retained by the dealer. The Fed can go to the dealer and look at them, but the Feds don't have them (until the FFL goes out of business, then their records are sent to the Fed), to compile a list from.

If you have to register your gun with local authorities, it is because of local law, not Federal law.
 
Like I said earlier, a handful of states are pushing right along with them.
When federal back ground checks were made mandatory for firearms purchases, Missouri dropped their old system which was probably not much different than a lot of other states. You had to go to the sheriffs office of the county in which you lived and fill out a request for a permit to purchase a handgun, then wait about ten days to receive the permit in the mail before you could actually purchase it. That was only with handguns or concealable weapons. Long guns were not included, nor were black powder firearms whether a handgun or long gun. Sounds like you've still got something similar in Michigan, at least in the respect that local authorities want that information.

The age comment. Older people and younger people frequently have different views on various things. Age brings experience, unfortunately, it also brings tradition and the conditioning mentioned above.
Some of those people have been conditioned for over 2000 years to think in certain ways. Education may be one of the more effective tools to battle long term conditioning.

Based on these two quotes I believe that you've somewhat flip flopped what is meant by 'conditioning' as the word has been used in the posts in this thread.

When Kilimanjaro posted this:
They also have 50 years of conditioning of the public through media and educational systems to agree with the concept of confiscation, registration, and outright bans, something they did not have in the 1960s.
... I believe that what he is saying is that the education system is part of what is doing the conditioning, not in fact a tool to combat it. I trust that he will correct me if I'm wrong.

Again I will trust that 44 AMP will correct me if I'm wrong when I say that when he posted this:
The most subtle (and effective) conditioning is the kind you don't even realize exists.
trust me when I say it has nothing to do with me being "conditioned" or brainwashed by the media or anything of the sort.
that you are aware of....
...I believe that what he is trying to say is that many of us have been conditioned without even realizing it, you and I included. I don't believe that he would agree with the thought that older people tend to be more easily 'conditioned' than younger people do, I'm betting just the opposite.
Though it is logical that continual bombardment over a greater period of time could have more impact, I don't think that is what he was trying to convey. Honestly, I believe that the more malleable subject would be the younger more impressionable mind which would yield much greater success in the long run, and I believe that he would agree. Especially when that conditioning is started early, which I believe it definitely is.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top