After reading many, many threads here I started wondering about many things. One of these is the "double tap". Why would anyone want to learn this "technique"? Has anybody's life ever been saved by using this method, or is it just a "parlor trick" as some here have called it? Seriously, has there been any documented incident where this "double tap" thing has been used. I think it is a waste of ammo, personally, but I have an open mind and could be swayed if presented evidence. Controlled rapid fire I can understand, but why practice shooting only 2 shots, then pause?
double tap a waste of ammo?
- Thread starter 625
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Impact of Reason
New member
special forces
I by no means am an expert on the topic, but I will cite one source that I deam to be good enough for me. It's a book I read about a year ago- Inside Delta Force : The Story of America's Elite Counterterrorist Unit , by Eric Haney. Haney is a founding member of delta force, that is, a graduate of the first ever delta trainee class... When they first got started back in the seventies (I think, it's been a while since I read it), they were shooting 1911's. They put a very heavy focus on double-tapping. Haney's explanation (and I have no idea about the accuracy of it) is that a properly executed double tap puts the bullets nearly on top of each other, causing a disproportionately traumatic wound. Haney detailed a number of shootings he was involved in, and left the impression there were many more in which he participated, but did not mention. The general impression that the book left me with was that he had probably performed double taps on a human target before, and was satisfied with the results. If it's good enough for delta, it's sure good enough for me. That being said, I have no firsthand experience or knowledge of actual double tap shootings aside from this one book, so I would love to hear from anyone with more firsthand information.
I by no means am an expert on the topic, but I will cite one source that I deam to be good enough for me. It's a book I read about a year ago- Inside Delta Force : The Story of America's Elite Counterterrorist Unit , by Eric Haney. Haney is a founding member of delta force, that is, a graduate of the first ever delta trainee class... When they first got started back in the seventies (I think, it's been a while since I read it), they were shooting 1911's. They put a very heavy focus on double-tapping. Haney's explanation (and I have no idea about the accuracy of it) is that a properly executed double tap puts the bullets nearly on top of each other, causing a disproportionately traumatic wound. Haney detailed a number of shootings he was involved in, and left the impression there were many more in which he participated, but did not mention. The general impression that the book left me with was that he had probably performed double taps on a human target before, and was satisfied with the results. If it's good enough for delta, it's sure good enough for me. That being said, I have no firsthand experience or knowledge of actual double tap shootings aside from this one book, so I would love to hear from anyone with more firsthand information.
It's called 'Minimum Response'.
Fire two shots center of mass.
Assess.
Is the fight stopped? Y/N?
Yes? Cover bad guy, call for help. Tac reload in case BG has friends.
No? Shoot again until aggressive behavior stops or you run out of ammo.
It's what is taught to police officers and armed citizens alike.
To parphrase Master Clint's quote, "If it's worth you having to shoot, it's worth shooting at least twice. Ammo is cheap, life is expensive. What's your's worth?" Or words to that effect..............basically.
One shot stops don't..........usually. A handgun has minimal power compared to a rifle or shotgun. The threat could be under the influence of drugs or alcohol, in which case the threat won't know or care if they're wounded. The only effective way to stop the threat, is to target either life support (COM), computer (brain), or mobility (pelvic region). COM presents the largest target and is easier to hit under stress.
The more holes you put into the life support, the quicker the system goes into shock and shuts down the ability to engage in bad behavior. Extremely important when the threat is capable of putting holes in you.
Fire two shots center of mass.
Assess.
Is the fight stopped? Y/N?
Yes? Cover bad guy, call for help. Tac reload in case BG has friends.
No? Shoot again until aggressive behavior stops or you run out of ammo.
It's what is taught to police officers and armed citizens alike.
To parphrase Master Clint's quote, "If it's worth you having to shoot, it's worth shooting at least twice. Ammo is cheap, life is expensive. What's your's worth?" Or words to that effect..............basically.
One shot stops don't..........usually. A handgun has minimal power compared to a rifle or shotgun. The threat could be under the influence of drugs or alcohol, in which case the threat won't know or care if they're wounded. The only effective way to stop the threat, is to target either life support (COM), computer (brain), or mobility (pelvic region). COM presents the largest target and is easier to hit under stress.
The more holes you put into the life support, the quicker the system goes into shock and shuts down the ability to engage in bad behavior. Extremely important when the threat is capable of putting holes in you.
I'll try to answer this as best as I can. The double tap was started by
Jeff Cooper (I believe) to compensate for a handguns lack of power, (if 1 is
good 2 is better) . But generally speaking if a body has absorbed 2 shots
and is still moving, it will be somewhat numbed to the pain of more shots.
This is were the misunderstood pause comes in. The way I learned it, if the
target was still standing after a double tap, it's time to change targets (i.e.
head shot). The idea being if the first 2 to the chest didn't work then more
to the same area may not help.
Modern training is geared more toward assesing the threat as you are
shooting.
Personally, I don't think the double tap is all that bad, I just don't think it's
the best way to do things. But as always ymmv
Jeff Cooper (I believe) to compensate for a handguns lack of power, (if 1 is
good 2 is better) . But generally speaking if a body has absorbed 2 shots
and is still moving, it will be somewhat numbed to the pain of more shots.
This is were the misunderstood pause comes in. The way I learned it, if the
target was still standing after a double tap, it's time to change targets (i.e.
head shot). The idea being if the first 2 to the chest didn't work then more
to the same area may not help.
Modern training is geared more toward assesing the threat as you are
shooting.
Personally, I don't think the double tap is all that bad, I just don't think it's
the best way to do things. But as always ymmv
CarbineCaleb
New member
I am certainly no expert on combat, so am just trying to use some common sense here and also what I've read. I view the "double tap" as a flexible recipe or routine for a combat scenario that you can rehearse and take out of your pocket and use effectively.
Firing too many is bad:
- You've only got so many shots
- There may be more than one attacker
- Shooting at someone down is going to look *real* bad in court
Firing too few is bad:
- Not everyone is stopped after one shot (or two)
So to me, the double tap is sort of a way of metering out your available shots - give 'em two, take a look, give em two, take another look (as opposed to just emptying your gun as fast as possible in panic). Further, if you practice it a lot, you can put those two out on target in quick succession, perhaps analogous to a combination punch?
Firing too many is bad:
- You've only got so many shots
- There may be more than one attacker
- Shooting at someone down is going to look *real* bad in court
Firing too few is bad:
- Not everyone is stopped after one shot (or two)
So to me, the double tap is sort of a way of metering out your available shots - give 'em two, take a look, give em two, take another look (as opposed to just emptying your gun as fast as possible in panic). Further, if you practice it a lot, you can put those two out on target in quick succession, perhaps analogous to a combination punch?
Cost of an extra 9mm JHP for my pistol.... about 18 cents...
When it was taught to me it was worth the reason and the extra bullet cost. I can't even worry about an extra bullet cost when it comes to life or economics. It isn't too hard for me to understand. Likely the shooter is nervous as I am sure most of us would be it would seem good practice to place an extra one into the attacker. If my first didn't hit a vital or the BG was still moving towards me or attacking it would be nice to have a 2nd chance within a hundredth of a second to add some insurance to the first shot. To each his own...... I will continue with how I have been taught and practice for many years....
I found a very good price on Remington 147g JHP.... Some folks argue they aren't fast enough...... I will continue to trust them....
When it was taught to me it was worth the reason and the extra bullet cost. I can't even worry about an extra bullet cost when it comes to life or economics. It isn't too hard for me to understand. Likely the shooter is nervous as I am sure most of us would be it would seem good practice to place an extra one into the attacker. If my first didn't hit a vital or the BG was still moving towards me or attacking it would be nice to have a 2nd chance within a hundredth of a second to add some insurance to the first shot. To each his own...... I will continue with how I have been taught and practice for many years....
I found a very good price on Remington 147g JHP.... Some folks argue they aren't fast enough...... I will continue to trust them....
Shooter 973
New member
Doubletap a waste?
Ammo is pretty cheap insurance..... why stop at 2 ??? When in doubt empty the magazine!!! Bumper sticker philosophy!!!
Ammo is pretty cheap insurance..... why stop at 2 ??? When in doubt empty the magazine!!! Bumper sticker philosophy!!!
Double Naught Spy
New member
625 and stevelyn, y'all don't understand what a double tap is. It isn't two shots and a pause. If you want to pause, that is your call, but a pause is NOT part of a double tap sequence.
A double tap is one sight picture and two rapid trigger pulls. Assuming your target isn't moving quickly, one sight picture and two fast shots should land both on target, if you have practiced this. You save the small amount of time required to let the sights settle between shots. This is something like 1/4 or 1/2 of a second of additional time. However, by the time you get off your double tap, the sequence is not continued as you aren't aiming the latter shot(s) and your subject may have changed position, gone down, or whatever. What a lot of folks consider being the assessment time after the double tap should be nothing more than letting the sights settle for a new proper sight picture before you start your next shot(s) if they are needed.
As STEVE M mentioned, there really should be no pause to assess. If you are thinking that hard, then you are moving too slowly. The notion of pausing to assess gives the impression of stopping your action, thinking, arriving at a decision, then acting on it. A running back going down the field will attempt to evade an defensive player trying to tackle him. The running back does not jink a couple of times and then stop to assess whether his move actually confused the defensive player or not. Nope. He continues to adjust his activities on the fly in real time.
A double tap is one sight picture and two rapid trigger pulls. Assuming your target isn't moving quickly, one sight picture and two fast shots should land both on target, if you have practiced this. You save the small amount of time required to let the sights settle between shots. This is something like 1/4 or 1/2 of a second of additional time. However, by the time you get off your double tap, the sequence is not continued as you aren't aiming the latter shot(s) and your subject may have changed position, gone down, or whatever. What a lot of folks consider being the assessment time after the double tap should be nothing more than letting the sights settle for a new proper sight picture before you start your next shot(s) if they are needed.
As STEVE M mentioned, there really should be no pause to assess. If you are thinking that hard, then you are moving too slowly. The notion of pausing to assess gives the impression of stopping your action, thinking, arriving at a decision, then acting on it. A running back going down the field will attempt to evade an defensive player trying to tackle him. The running back does not jink a couple of times and then stop to assess whether his move actually confused the defensive player or not. Nope. He continues to adjust his activities on the fly in real time.
Put 2 or 3 rnds fast center mass and assess! Why, cause if they got body armor on, putting more rnds center mass aint going to do the trick for you! So you will probubally have to start trying to hit in the ocular window ( in the eyeballs area) or low gut shoot em while trying to get the he*l out of Dodge real fast..
if you put two shots into him and he is still coming...... a dot to the forehead would be in order. I have read that after the initial shock to the body the pain center is kind of numbed to further damage. That a person can cover distance at a pretty good clip..not to mention that his body is probably dumping huge amounts of adrenaline.
DoubleNaught,
I speaking strictly from the point of view as a police officer and firearms instructor. In our case we have to assess.
It appears that there is a difference in terminology. So let me clear up the terminology a bit to see if we're speaking the same language.
Minimum Response=Two shots COM aka Controlled pair. Two quick sighted shots on threat.
Your definition of a 'Double Tap' leads me to think this is what we refer to as a "Hammer". One sight picture, squeeze off two shots as fast as you possibly can.
A 'Hammer' is what we would use during a "Failure To Stop" drill, aka (I think) a "Mozambique". Two very fast shots to the COM followed by one to the head.
Different trainers. Different terminology. Same ideas.
I speaking strictly from the point of view as a police officer and firearms instructor. In our case we have to assess.
It appears that there is a difference in terminology. So let me clear up the terminology a bit to see if we're speaking the same language.
Minimum Response=Two shots COM aka Controlled pair. Two quick sighted shots on threat.
Your definition of a 'Double Tap' leads me to think this is what we refer to as a "Hammer". One sight picture, squeeze off two shots as fast as you possibly can.
A 'Hammer' is what we would use during a "Failure To Stop" drill, aka (I think) a "Mozambique". Two very fast shots to the COM followed by one to the head.
Different trainers. Different terminology. Same ideas.
CarbineCaleb
New member
I've never been shot, and hope I forever miss out on that experience, but, when I have heard people who have been shot (even with a rifle) describe it, they said they actually didn't feel any pain at all until hours later...
TheeBadOne
Moderator
What stevelyn said.
Webleywielder
Moderator
Double Tapping is great, but what next?
Head or Hips?
A head (and for the purposes of this posting this includes the neck) is not as easy to hit as a Bianchi Plate. It tends to move up, down, side to side, lean forward and backward. It is the narrowest of the three target areas and an extremity. Easy to miss horizontally. A verticle miss hits air, or back into the center of mass. When you consider that only hits to the CNS section of the head are really effective, it is a very low percentage shot.
The hips (pelvis) are a very wide target. A verticle miss to the hips strikes back into the COM or possibly the femur, femoral artery, and supporting thigh muscles. A hit to the hips is not going to immediately kill but it will at least temporarily take the assailant out of the fight by causing partial or total verticle collapse. This would give you several options. You have time to seek cover or escape. If escape is not desirable because the assailant still poses a threat to others; you have the advantage of mobility to make deflection and parthian shots.
It is one thing to shoot a head shot on an unsuspecting stationary individual, it is another to shoot a head shot at the opposite. For the vast majority of individuals I am not so sure it is a good idea to shoot for the head of an assailant unless it is the only target area exposed.
"In a world devoid of semiautomatics, a properly set-up Webley is the ultimate full-size self-defense handgun".
Head or Hips?
A head (and for the purposes of this posting this includes the neck) is not as easy to hit as a Bianchi Plate. It tends to move up, down, side to side, lean forward and backward. It is the narrowest of the three target areas and an extremity. Easy to miss horizontally. A verticle miss hits air, or back into the center of mass. When you consider that only hits to the CNS section of the head are really effective, it is a very low percentage shot.
The hips (pelvis) are a very wide target. A verticle miss to the hips strikes back into the COM or possibly the femur, femoral artery, and supporting thigh muscles. A hit to the hips is not going to immediately kill but it will at least temporarily take the assailant out of the fight by causing partial or total verticle collapse. This would give you several options. You have time to seek cover or escape. If escape is not desirable because the assailant still poses a threat to others; you have the advantage of mobility to make deflection and parthian shots.
It is one thing to shoot a head shot on an unsuspecting stationary individual, it is another to shoot a head shot at the opposite. For the vast majority of individuals I am not so sure it is a good idea to shoot for the head of an assailant unless it is the only target area exposed.
"In a world devoid of semiautomatics, a properly set-up Webley is the ultimate full-size self-defense handgun".
Hmmm...interesting. Thanks for the responses guys.
I guess it may not be a waste of ammo after all. However, I think the obvious point must me made that each potential confrontation with a BG forces the use of different tactics. I had not thought of the potential for more than one BG. I think I would try to fire many rounds while fleeing the area. I don't like those odds. I'm just not sure if training to do double taps is a whole lot different than shooting rapid fire. I don't mean emptying the firearm, but 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. quick shots WHILE assessing the situation.
I guess it may not be a waste of ammo after all. However, I think the obvious point must me made that each potential confrontation with a BG forces the use of different tactics. I had not thought of the potential for more than one BG. I think I would try to fire many rounds while fleeing the area. I don't like those odds. I'm just not sure if training to do double taps is a whole lot different than shooting rapid fire. I don't mean emptying the firearm, but 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. quick shots WHILE assessing the situation.
Garand Illusion
New member
I don't know, guys. With a double tap you double the cost of putting down a bad guy by using 2 bullets instead of 1. Does that sound like a good idea? Would you want to pay twice as much for every car you buy? Twice as much for every loaf of bread.
Of course, we Americans are just used to the luxury of being able to fire twice into potential murderers.
What was the saying back in the '30s? A chicken in every pot, two cars in every garage, and two hollow points in every bad guy.
But seriously ... I think the question has been well answered above. Much safer with a pistol to practice 2 at a time. Most auto's have more than enough ammo to deal with any reasonalbe amount of BG's, and even a 5 shot will take down 2 BG's and leave you with an extra to make sure the rest of the attackers keep on running. Or at least to get away and to cover while they're shocked how their powerless victim suddenly got dangerous.
I've also known a number of LEO's over the years, and they ALL have practiced the "2 to the body 1 to the head" drill as SOP.
Of course, we Americans are just used to the luxury of being able to fire twice into potential murderers.
What was the saying back in the '30s? A chicken in every pot, two cars in every garage, and two hollow points in every bad guy.
But seriously ... I think the question has been well answered above. Much safer with a pistol to practice 2 at a time. Most auto's have more than enough ammo to deal with any reasonalbe amount of BG's, and even a 5 shot will take down 2 BG's and leave you with an extra to make sure the rest of the attackers keep on running. Or at least to get away and to cover while they're shocked how their powerless victim suddenly got dangerous.
I've also known a number of LEO's over the years, and they ALL have practiced the "2 to the body 1 to the head" drill as SOP.
I first learned "Double Taps" back in 1982 at my first police job. You have to remember not every Police Agency was using Hollow points at that time. I was trained to shoot pairs, and use point shooting. When I fired it was a double tap at close range (under 15 yards) or a single, farther out. The way we used them are what some of you call hammers, believe me hammers from a 357 with hollow points work. I carried loops, speedloaders and another revolver.