Double rifles??

B

bswiv

New member
This will sound crazy but it is possible, and if considered thoughtfully actually practical and useful.

Why in the world is there not a light, as light as one of the top grade shoutguns which can be had in the 5-5 1/2 range, O/U rifle made from stainless with a composit stock sans all the adornment? A rifle ment to be used with all the inherent positive features of such a design incorperating modern materials and designs.

I looked at the Flodman and while the design is cutting edge they still have wood only stocks and it is rather ugly, even though light and of stainless.

Such a rifle, depending on chambering, would be perfect for our thick woods here in Florida and with consideration of the lightness and compact nature would be useful in a number of other situations.

Could such be built on a 20 ga. Ruger Red Label actions? Pressures to high? Other options?
 
You guys have itchy trigger fingers on the keyboard, maybe you should be looking at single shots.

Anyhow, a 5 lb double rifle in a serious caliber would be a tough proposition.
Why has not anybody tried?
Because you haven't put in a large enough order.

At one time, when Dietrich Apel owned Paul Jaeger, he would convert a Ruger Red Label shotgun to .45-70 or 9.3x74. He was even getting monoblocs from Ruger so he could leave the shot barrels alone for a convertible rifle-shotgun.
Plenty of strength, but it didn't weigh no 5 pounds.

Now, Dunn's owns the Jaeger name and when you click on Dunn's Fine Guns, you get Cabela's Gun Library, so I expect that era is over.

Edit to add:

Merkel makes a single shot under 6 lbs.
The Blaser S2 has a catalog weight of 3.5 kg = 7.7 lbs which is surprisingly light for a double rifle available up to .30-06.
Their O/U Express is listed at 2.8 kg = 6.2 lbs which is really light.
 
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I'm thinking outside of the box here, as those of us who are ignorant of the practical limitations of physics, available materials and engering techniques, are prone to do.

I also don't have the need/desire for large calibre rounds. It seems we tend to think 300 yard shots or a ton of energy with a big bullet. The reality though is that for most applications most hunters are well served by something producing energies not exceding the 7 MM Mauser, generally less.

I also have seen some of the newer barrels wraped in carbon which offer significantly reduced weights and I understand that a great portion of the extra weight in a O/U rifle is the weight of the barrels.
 
It isn't the laws of physics, it is the laws of economics that get in the way.
I just don't think there is the market for enough featherweight double rifles to pay for their development and manufacturing base.

You are otherwise correct, but why not take it a step farther?
Shoot a single shot. They can be made almost arbitrarily light, the Merkel is under 6 lbs, the Blaser K95 barely over 5. And they are available off the shelf. For enough money.
 
Neither is available in stainless and in both instances they "dress" them us so much. Part of the appeal of the Ruger Red Label was always it's understated rugged clean lines.

Now your "economics" I fully understand but how about the cost of just one? I mean custon is a possibility........ And I'll bet it can be done right for a lot less than one of the heavely adorned European O/U. Maybe?

But then what is a few thousand over the course of a couple of decades of use and with the understanding that if maintained well it will not diminish in value all that much, if at all?

Any idea where a smith with ideas and a willingness to experement is?
 
Sorry, I don't know of anybody who would work on a double rifle like that.

I think you underestimate the economics. I think the first one would cost about half as much as the next hundred; kind of like aircraft manufacture.
 
The big problem of a double shotgun is getting the barrels to shoot to the same place, and that is only at a specific range. At that range, the shot patterns are at the same point; then they cross over, so that the pattern for the left/top barrel is to the right/down, and vice versa. (Think of the shot tracks as forming an "X" in the air.)

But shotgun patterns are rather large, so an exact match at an exact range is not necessary; there can be some slack. A rifle, on the other hand, must be more precise and must be made so the two bullets strike within fractions of an inch of one another at a specific range. Again, of course, there is the crossover, so the rifle is "sighted in" for both barrels at only one range and that range is not variable.

It is that single factor that makes double rifles very expensive, since the "regulation" of the barrels must be done by hand and by trial and error. Economies of scale are not really possible, since no matter how many are made, each gun has to be regulated individually.

It might be possible to build a side by side double rifle with two sets of sights, one for each barrel, but even that would be impossible in an over-under gun.

Jim
 
There was one double rifle SHOOTER, Ray Ordorica, maybe, who said HIS double was regulated parallel. The barrels say an inch apart on centers, the individual barrel groups centered an inch apart at all ranges within the limits of the sights. He said there was no sign that it "crossed" with the right loads.
 
The "crossing" seems of little consequense in the real world. Regulated to say 100 yards the spread at 200 would be the same as the spread at the muzzle? That's correct isn't it? If so not many of us, and certianly not myself would notice the difference.

It seems that such a rifle would be perfect for our Florida woods and rather unique which is of course part of the appeal.

The problem is finding someone to do it.
 
Agreed, it makes no difference at iron sight hunting ranges, but just as a narrow techical matter, not all double rifles are regulated to converge at some specific range.

There is, somewhere, a board that discusses high end rifles and safari hunting, if we can locate it, that would be the place to ask.

I can visualize a ultra light double, with aluminum receiver, carbon fibre barrels in chopper lump breeches joined mechanically so as to not have to be heated for traditional solder, bracketed at the muzzle with adjustment for regulation, no ribs. It will look ugly to those of us used to conventional designs. Go to
http://www.micksguns.com/shotguns.htm
about 3/4 down the page is a Baby Bretton shotgun. Imagine it with sights and you have the idea.

Now, finding a builder...
 
OK so you're right, that is a ugly firearm. But it does make the point that innivation is possible, though not always a good looking thing.

Enlighten me a bit: chopper lump breeches?

I understand the need not to solder the carbon fiber barrels and I get the regulators ( a number of makers acomplish it in a less ugly way than that Bretton ).

So how about fluted barrells to reduce weight?

Check out the Flodman. Interesting but also generally ugly.
 
Chopper lump means that each barrel is set into a breech section that makes up half of the underlugs. Looks sort of like an axe, hence "chopper." Then the two barrels and their chopper lumps are joined together with a dovetail and solder. Could just as well be with pins and epoxy if carbon fibre barrels.
Different from dovetail lumps in which the barrels are soldered together and then the underlugs are set in from the bottom. Cheaper but not as strong.
Many modern doubles are made with monobloc in which the whole rear end, underlugs and all is one piece and the tubes are sleeved in. See a nice double with a ring of light engraving about the front of the chambers and it is probably to cover the seam of a monobloc.

Lots of ways to save weight, carbon fibre or steel sleeved into aluminum have been done. Takes deep fluting to cut much weight. Titanium barrels have been made but have short service life, not what you want on a custom rifle.
 
Thanks, Jim, and all correct. There have been parallel barrel double rifles, but they are not common and I forgot about them. They are not high in the looks department, though.

The African double rifles were not regulated at any 100 yards, though; IIRC 20 yards was more like it, which is why the hunters kept having charging rhinos fall at their feet!

Still, except as an expensive novelty (or where semi-autos are illegal), I don't see what purpose a double rifle serves. Maybe the big .600's and the like are necessary in Africa, but I doubt there is any game of that sort in Florida.

Jim
 
Haven't looked lately, but Cabela's used to sell a side by side double rifle in 45-70. Price was reasonable (especiallyfor a double rifle) at about $1500. It's not an O/U, but it is a double!
European shooters were wild about double rifles until relatively recently. Valmet made an O/U rifle, but they were not cheap. You can still find nice double rifles in low-pressure cartridges from European sources. But once you make the transition to high-pressure cartridges, the mechanical strength and weight required to contain the cartridge become a handicap. Most bolt rifles can be built for a fraction of the cost of a double rifle, so the buyers are voting with their wallets.
 
Jim,

Parallel regulation does not mean parallel barrels with ugly wide muzzle spacing. There is still a good deal of convergence to allow for barrel whip. It is only a matter of half an inch of zero change, after all.

W.W. Greener said an 8-bore ball gun was sufficiently accurate for big game to 50 yards, a rifled 8-bore to 100, although he did not say what his regulating range was.
I think Krieghoff regulates their .416-500 for 80 metres.
Jack Lott showed a 1 1/2" 50 yard group for a .500 Nitro.
My friend's .450 BPE is about as accurate as you can hold the express sights at 50 yards but at 100 it is obvious the barrels are shooting apart with any load he has tried. Probably too heavy bullets for an early express, but there aren't many 270 grain .458 bullets around these days.

The reason the Flodman and Valmet O/U rifle versions have such widely spaced barrels at the muzzle is because they are on shotgun actions and the barrels have to be spaced the same at the breech as a 12 gauge for firing pin and lockup alignment.

The Pedersoli Kodiak .45-70 double rifle is up to $3250 at Dixie these days. The percussion version is $900.
 
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