Double action trigger pull question

G

Genepix

New member
As a carry piece, I pocket carry a 642- a sweet and concealable weapon. I find the trigger action fairly heavy, (and expected), and wonder what advice you might have regarding performing a trigger job on this model...As the hammer is encased, and double action is the only option, I think a lighter pull would only add effectiveness. When I asked my local dealer about this, they declined due to liability issues...Your thoughts?
 
Read this:

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/action_performance.html

Let's talk about triggers...
Wednesday, September 27, 2006 Filed in: Revolvers, Gunsmithing, Personal opinions
I had an interesting email recently. The writer said that he'd contacted a number of gunsmiths to inquire about action work. In every case, he said, all he could get out of them was "we can make it lighter." Occasionally I'll get an inquiry from the other side of this phenomenon - someone whose only question is "how light can you make it?" Why this fixation on pull weight? I believe it's because people just haven't been properly educated!

If you've read my essay on "What makes a good trigger?", you already know about the factors that go into a quality action job. (If you haven't read it, go ahead and do so now; I'll wait.)

Back already? OK!

When having action work done, there are three competing performance criteria: weight, reliability, and return.

Weight is self explanatory, and is what most people relate to. I've covered this in the article referenced above, so I won't go into more explanation - except to say that weight isn't the only thing you should consider, and if that's all your gunsmith can talk about you might want to re-think having him work on your gun!

The second performance criteria is reliability. When I speak of reliability, I mean the expectation that the gun will ignite primers from all common ammunition 100% of the time in both single and double action. That means even the hardest primers being made (currently CCI Magnum primers) will light off every time that the hammer falls; anything else is less reliable. A gun that fires off Federal primers all the time, Winchester most of the time, and CCI Magnums about half the time isn't reliable; it may be acceptable for the use that the gun will be put to, but it is not reliable. (As it turns out, the more reliable the ignition, the more accurate the gun will be. There are a number of reasons for this, which I'll go into in a later article.)

Finally, there is return, or the action of the trigger resetting itself. In the article I referenced above, I talked about the qualities of trigger return - but there is more to consider. One way of lightening the overall pull weight of the action is to reduce the spring tension that powers the trigger return. This can introduce a couple of undesired side effects; first, the return spring tension can be so low that the trigger "sticks" and doesn't return (most prevalent on guns where the quality of the trigger return, in terms of smoothness, isn't understood or is ignored.)

The second side effect is that the return speed is lowered. This results in the shooter being able to "outrun" the trigger, shooting faster than the trigger will reset itself. This can cause premature cycling of the cylinder (the cylinder rotating without the hammer being cocked and dropped) or action locking (requiring the shooter to stop his/her pull, let the action reset, and then restarting the pull - most common on Rugers.) In a competition, these side effects can lose points - in a self-defense scenario, they might cause you to lose something more precious!

Here's the "kicker": when getting action work done, you get to choose any two of the three performance criteria, but not all three. For instance, if you want light pull weight and good reliability, you're going to sacrifice return. If you want light pull and good return, you're going to sacrifice reliability. If you want reliability and fast trigger reset, you're going to have to learn to deal with heavier pull weights!

There is no free lunch, and there isn't a gunsmith in the world who can repeal the laws of physics; you get any 2, but not all 3 in the same gun. You have to make the decision as to what is best for your intended use!

Let me illustrate: I am starting work on a Ruger SP-101 that is to be shot by an older lady. She only shoots reloads that her husband makes for her, and only at the range (this is not a defensive or competition piece.)

The primary concern is ease of cocking the gun in single action; it won't be used in double action at all. So, the criteria that is important in this case is action weight; we don't care all that much about return (other than it actually do so - the speed isn't a consideration), and since the fellow can load the ammunition to shoot in this specific gun (he will use whatever primers necessary to make the gun run), reliability is not a concern. This is a great example of tuning the action to fit the use!

For a defensive gun, reliability is the first consideration, with return second. For a competition gun, say for ICORE or USPSA (or even IDPA), the speed of the action reset is paramount - followed by a light pull weight. The competitor will usually select or reload ammunition to suit the gun, which makes reliability (in the sense that I use the term) less a concern.

If all a gunsmith can talk about is how light he can make the action, he's ignoring fully two-thirds of of action performance. This is a two-way street, though - its not just gunsmiths who don't understand this stuff! Shooters raised on the typical gun rag articles never learn about this either, because all most writers know how to discuss is pull weight.

When I get an inquiry from someone whose only question is "how light", I try to educate him or her to make more informed choices. I hope I've been able to do that here!
Click to expand...
 
http://www.grantcunningham.com/good_trigger.html

What is a "good" trigger?

I recently met a fellow who was shooting a Colt Detective Special. We talked about his gun a while, and I asked him if he'd had any action work done to it. He said he hadn't; sure enough, on trying his gun, I felt the typical Colt factory trigger - heavy and ugly. Since I happened to be carrying my own Colt that day, I offered to let him try it's trigger.

Surprise! He handed back with thanks, but opined that it "didn't feel much better than mine."

ARE YOU FREAKIN' KIDDING ME??? Luckily, I resisted the Homer-Simpson-like urge to strangle him. When I got back to the shop, though, I wondered - why didn't he notice the phenomenal, night-and-day difference between the guns?

It wasn't too long after that incident that I popped into a local gunstore. This store often stocks guns from the custom shop of a major revolver manufacturer (said shop being a Center for their Performance handguns. Ahem.) They had a couple of examples, and I asked to see them. The triggers were great in single action, but in double action were hardly (if at all) better than their run-of-the-mill production guns. I considered neither of them to be a sign of quality action work.

As I was chatting with the clerk, a couple of fellows sauntered by and asked to see the gun I had jut put down. They each tried the DA trigger, exclaimed how great the action was, and agreed that this particular maker "always has good triggers."

I was astounded; had I not been there, I wouldn't have believed we were talking about the same gun!

After much thought, it occurred to me that the most folks are simply unschooled on what makes a good trigger, and why anyone should want one. After kicking myself for missing these "teachable moments", I decided to help everyone become a more educated, sophisticated revolver aficionado.

First things first
There are several aspect of a trigger's movement that, taken together, comprise "trigger" or "action" feel.

Single action: Weight, creep, feel, letoff, over-travel.
Double action: Weight, consistency, feel, letoff, over-travel, return.
Physical characteristics: Width, profile, surface.

Let's look at these one at a time, shall we?

Weight: this is simply the amount of force (in pounds) required to operate the trigger. This is the aspect that most people pay attention to, as it's the one thing which can be expressed by a number - and we Americans love numbers! The trouble is that it's really not the most important (within reasonable limits, of course) part of the trigger. In single action, lighter is generally better, to the point that it affects either ignition reliability or safety (a hammer that won't stay cocked on its own or that is released so easily that accidental discharges occur.)

In double action, reducing that weight can not only result in misfires, but it also affects how positively the trigger returns. I've also found that I need a certain amount of resistance to shoot my best; my finger wants to feel some amount of pressure.

Overly light triggers can also mask an otherwise bad action. You'll often hear people say that the best trigger job is lighter springs - if you lighten the action, you won't feel as much through the trigger. The trigger is still awful, but you don't notice it as much. If you're happy with that, more power to you - but as you become accustomed to what a quality trigger feels like, you'll find that you like it less and less.

There is an old mantra with regard to trigger weight: smooth, not light. You can shoot a smooth but heavy trigger better than a light but gritty one.

Creep (single action only): this refers to the amount of movement before the sear releases. A gun with no creep seems to break like the proverbial "glass rod" - regardless of how heavy the trigger is, it seems to just release at the perfect time. A trigger with lots of creep will move quite a bit before the sear breaks; in general, a slight amount of creep is acceptable, but excessive amounts are the sign of sloppy trigger work. Exactly where the line between "slight" and "excessive" is drawn depends on the individual shooter!

Consistency (double action only): when a trigger has the same pull weight from start to finish, it is said to be consistent. Some triggers (Colt, Dan Wesson) continually increase their pull weight toward the end of the stroke, an effect called "stacking". Some triggers (S&W "J" frames) have a slight decrease in pull weight before the sear releases, while others start out at one weight, increase in the middle of the pull, then decrease at the end.

In general, the more consistent the pull the easier it is to shoot; however, some people like a bit of "stacking" in their actions, and shoot best that way. A gun with decreasing pull weight is slightly harder to shoot, and those with a "hump" in their pull are (at least for me) the hardest of all to shoot.

A good trigger will have as consistent a pull weight as possible, within the limitations of the gun's design and the shooter's desire.

Feel: ever pulled a trigger that seemed to have sand in it? Or a trigger that felt like running a stick down a picket fence? Both of those are examples of bad action feel - the feedback given through a trigger as the action's parts slide and rotate. The elimination of those "artifacts" in the feel is a prime sign of a gunsmith's ability. A good trigger should not have any roughness or hesitation in its stroke, regardless of pull weight.

Letoff: when the sear releases, it should do so predictably and without abruptness. Many triggers release with what can only be described as jerk, which makes holding the sights steady at the moment of the bullet's exit much more difficult.

Over-travel: after the sear breaks, the trigger should stop moving back. Trigger movement after the sear releases is similar to a bad letoff; it can result in the gun moving slightly when the bullet exits the muzzle, which limits accuracy. Colt revolvers, because of their design, have no over-travel; other makes control this through the use of trigger stops (in various forms.) Interestingly, correcting over-travel can usually make up for an abrupt letoff.

Return (DA only): Jerry Miculek, the greatest living revolver shooter, points out that the trigger pull is only half - or even less - of the equation. Trigger return is at least as important to successful double-action shooting. Trigger return should be judged much like trigger pull: no hesitation, no grittiness or roughness, consistent speed, and as quick as the gun's design allows.

This aspect of trigger performance is one that many gunsmiths - particularly those who are "generalists" - don't understand. I know someone who owns a revolver customized by a very well-known gunsmith. (So well known, in fact, that if you were to name the top 5 best-known and respected pistolsmiths in the country, this fellow would be on that list. It is hard to pick up a gun magazine without seeing his name someplace in its pages.) This fellow is renowned for doing both autoloader and revolver work, and the gun bears his trademark etched into the barrel.

The trigger pull is pretty good - not quite as consistent as I would like, but it's not bad. The trigger return, however, is atrocious. I've never felt a stock gun whose return was this bad, let alone one worked on by one of the shining lights in the pistolsmithing field! It literally feels like someone dumped sand into that action - in stark contrast to the pull, which is nice and smooth. So jarring is the juxtaposition of pull and release that it is difficult to concentrate on shooting the thing.

A good trigger has a return as good as - or better than - its pull. If your gunsmith doesn't understand this, switch gunsmiths!


Physical characteristics
While not strictly part of the action itself, the shape and finish of the trigger can greatly influence how the package feels. These aspects are usually more personal preference than anything, but over the years some general consensus has been reached.

Most revolver shooters agree that a trigger with a smooth, polished face and well-rounded edges is to be desired. The surface should be free of grooves or residual striations, have a perfect radius, and polished to a mirror finish. The edges of trigger should be rounded so that there is no discernible corner; the finger should slide smoothly from one side to the other, and from top to bottom.

There are exceptions; for instance, Jerry Miculek is adamant about the use of serrated (grooved) as an aid to speed shooting. Like I said, it's about personal preference!

Width is important too - in general, the wider the trigger the lighter the action will feel. (A narrow trigger can be made to feel wider by finishing a flat portion down the middle one-third of its face, and by rounding the edges just a bit less.) The back of the trigger should be attended to - one with a sharp back edge/corner will make itself felt. Lightly breaking those edges will eliminate any pinching or chafing, particularly on those triggers which are not terribly thick.

I hope this has helped you to understand just what is meant by the term "good trigger". Handle lots of guns, both factory and custom, and get used to evaluating them by the standards above. You'll find yourself becoming a connoisseur in no time!
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Thank you for a lot of information I did not have re: triggers.....I now think that my issue might be with the width of the trigger- not the pull itself....During extended range shooting with the 642, my trigger finger always becomes sore- something that never happens with my other handguns....(All larger)....Any thoughts about changing that? Thanks...
 
There is another factor that sort of gets glossed over, and that is hammer mass. Firing a primer requires a certain momentum, a combination of mass and speed. If a hammer with a low mass (as in a J Frame) has enough speed from a strong spring, all will be well. If a hammer of higher mass has a lighter spring, all will also be well. But combine a light hammer (especially one that has been "de-horned") with a light spring and you may find a bad guy being very unimpressed by a gun that goes "click."

So before going about tinkering with the springs on revolvers, especially small revolvers with light weight hammers, make sure you know what you are doing. And if you do a "trigger job" that weakens springs, and the gun is to be other than a "safe queen" or a range only gun, make sure it will continue to function even if cold or dirty. BTW, just buying commercial "light" springs does not guarantee that the will work; I have seen some revolvers that failed to function after such springs were installed.

Jim
 
Point taken. Thanks for the responses. I think I just need to strengthen my trigger finger and determine just how to make it fit better with the trigger itself...Thanks..:-)
 
It is not always just a matter of getting a professional trigger job. I was at the range a year or so ago when one of the club members was showing around his S&W .357. He had sent the gun to one of the "name" pistolsmiths. It had the lightest DA trigger I have ever seen on a Smith and the SA pull was like unto a feather.

He loaded up, aimed, squeezed, and CLICK. He examined the gun and tried again. CLICK. After four more CLICKs he began to rant about the handloads, so someone gave him some factory ammo. CLICK. The primers were barely marked. Some nasty person (me) suggested that the super gunsmith had not done a very good job and had not even tested the gun when he was done. The nasty person was snappily informed that the work cost over $1000 and was done by a SUPER PISTOLSMITH who NEVER made mistakes. I shrugged and went back to shooting my own 586, which has a quite nice trigger pull (my work) and still goes BANG all the time.

Jim
 
My 642, like most off the rack DA pistols was stiff and scratchy when I got it.
Link any rack off the shelf gun, it has burrs, tool marks etc etc from the machining/castings.

AND when I first started shooting it, my fingers got a little raw.

It was gonna me my carry/pocket pistol. I knew I'd have to put several rounds through it before I could hit something reasonably well, and develope confidence in it (and me shooting it).

A few thousand rounds later and tons of dryfiring its now smoother then a prom queens thighs. And my trigger finger had toughened up and go a little stronger.

In stead of sending it out to some custom dude, I put my money into powder and primers, cast lots of bullets and learned to shoot the gun. I still go through a min of 200 rounds a week with it to keep in shape.

Hard to beat investing you money in bullets down range when it comes to being able to shoot a gun, any gun.
 
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