Double Action Only is an oxymoron -- At least Cooper agrees with me!

J

Jack 99

New member
A while back there was a thread on mis-used terms in the shooting world. I took issue with "Double Action Only" since it seemed to be an oxymoron from my understanding of the term "double" and "single" action.

Everybody thought I was an idiot.

I do feel partially vindicated, though. Cooper agrees with me. From the February 2000 commentary:

----------------------------
We must caution prospective pistol students not to bring anything called
"double-action only" to class. The term itself is a misnomer, since "double" implies
two methods, and "only" negates that.
-----------------------------

http://www.cybersurf.co.uk/~johnny/jeff/index.html

Call it what you will, a pistol that is striker fired (Glock) or can only be fired by stroking the hammer by pulling the trigger will always be Single Action to me (after all, there's only ONE way to fire the thing!).

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"Put a rifle in the hands of a Subject, and he immediately becomes a Citizen." -- Jeff Cooper

"The fact is that the average man's love of liberty is nine-tenths imaginary, exactly like his love of sense, justice and truth. He is not actually happy when free; he is uncomfortable, a bit alarmed, and intolerably lonely. Liberty is not a thing for the great masses of men. It is the exclusive possession of a small and disreputable minority, like knowledge, courage and honor. It takes a special sort of man to understand and enjoy liberty - and he is usually an outlaw in democratic societies." -- H.L. Mencken, February 12, 1923, Baltimore Evening Sun

"If God had not wanted them to be sheared, he would not have made them sheep." -- Bad guy from the Magnificent Seven.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"I don't know what you mean by 'glory'," Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't- till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!'"

"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.

"When I use a word", Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less."

"The question is", said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is", said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master-that's all."[/quote]

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Protect your Right to Keep and Bear Arms!

[This message has been edited by Gorthaur (edited March 13, 2000).]
 
BluesMan,

They're single action.

Only ONE way exists to fire a "DAO" pistol, that makes it a single action in my book.

Gorthaur,

Funny. BTW, Lewis Carroll was a drug-addicted pedophile.

Yes, DAO has been in common useage so long that even if it is incorrect its now a standard term so the whole argument is kind of moot.

Still, terms can become important sometimes and we should at least be starting on the same page. Besides, I like to argue fine points like this.

Anyone willing to make any bets on whether or not beans are a fruit?
 
Jack, your argument is well-made. I understand it, and will not argue it. I do believe there is validity to saying that a double action may also be a pistol that performs two actions (cocking and firing) when pulling the trigger, but perhaps I'm just justifying my position.

__________

(BTW, Lewis Carrol did prefer the company of little girls, but I've no evidence that he was a pediphole. He did photograph little girls nude, for cherubic pictures that their parents commissioned.

As for drugs, it's probable. But so it was with Poe and many other reputable writers, and we don't necessarily eschew their works out of hand.)

[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited March 13, 2000).]
 
LAPD and others had revolvers altered so they would not fire "single action." What has happened is the term "double action" is now like Coke and some think any cola is Coke or any chemical spray is Mace or any tissue is Kleenex. The proper term was replaced by a term that is incorrect and amazing how many gun rags promoted it and made no effort to correct it.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheBluesMan:
So if DAO is what they aren't. Could somebody please tell me what they are?

[/quote]

Ahhhh...the debate that just won't die...sorta like .45 vs. 9mm.

I think DAO means that the weapon (either pistol or revolver) can only be fired by pressing the trigger, which causes the hammer to cock back (action one), and continuing to press until the hammer falls (action two). This is usually described as a long, heavy pull.

After firing a round, the next round is fired the same way, i.e., using that long, heavy pull of the trigger. The trigger performing two functions, cocking the hammer and droping the hammer.

The weapon (either pistol or revolver) is designed so that one can not pull the hammer back so that it will remain back.

Beretta makes such an autoloader in its 92 and 96 series pistols. Taurus' 85ch is an example in a revolver.

Joe

[This message has been edited by Numbers (edited March 13, 2000).]
 
So...How many ways are there to discharge an old Single Action Army revolver?

One.

But it requires two distinct actions to achieve this.

Action 1: Manually cock the hammer
Action 2: Pull the trigger to release the hammer.

Therefore, the fact that the trigger releases an already cocked hammer makes the trigger pull a *single action* which discharges the firearm.

A DAO with a shrouded hammer, or a Glock also require a *single action* of the trigger pull to discharge the firearm. However, this *single action* of the trigger pull performs two distinct actions, cocking and firing. While the *single action* of the same trigger pull on an SAA only releases an already cocked hammer.

Ergo, the fact that a single trigger pull to a firearm will discharge it is not enough to determine whether the firearm in question is a SA, DA/SA, or the so-called DAO. Using that flawed argument, one may come to the conclusion that ALL guns are single action. (It always comes down to pulling the trigger, right?) My argument is that the DAO moniker pertains to the single trigger pull performing the double action of cocking and firing the gun.

<disclaimer> I don't necessarily believe my argument, but I, too, enjoy debating the fine points, Jack. :) </disclaimer>

May the good Lord have mercy on my soul, I am arguing a position opposite that of The Guru. What could I possibly be thinking. :confused:

------------------
RKBA!

"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website


[This message has been edited by TheBluesMan (edited March 13, 2000).]
And again, to correct mucho spelling errors,

[This message has been edited by TheBluesMan (edited March 13, 2000).]
 
A DA can be fired in either DA or SA mode. A DAO cannot be fired in SA mode. It can only be fired in DA mode. That is what makes it a DA Only.
 
A double-action is capable of firing one of 2 ways: pull the trigger, stroking the hammer in a long trigger pull, OR thumb the hammer back manually and pull the trigger. Either way, two seperate "actions" are employed, but you have an option of how to employ them.

A single action means you have no choice. In a revolver or 1911, you MUST thumb back the hammer manually (OK, the 1911 is a bit different, you can rack the slide, still, you can pull the trigger all day with the hammer down and nothing will happen). There is only ONE way to fire, hence single action. Once again, 2 actions are employed, but you don't have a choice in the matter.

In a manner of speaking, Glocks are true single actions because only ONE action is employed and there's only ONE way to make it happen.

Nobody taking the "Beans are a Fruit" bet? I've probably won $100 over the course of my life with that one.
 
We got off on the wrong foot 150 years ago. When the first "Double action" revplvers were developed around 1850 the British called them "trigger cockers" which is close to correct. Wheb the first revolvers were developed that could fire "single action" or "double action" thyt called them selective action. If shooters had stuck by this nomenclature we would have far fewer prob;ems.
 
Jack99,

You're right, 'double action only' IS an oxymoron. The correct term for what most people call the DA mode is 'trigger-cocking."

The key to understanding something is to call it by its right name. I know that there are a lot of people who disagree with Col Cooper, but most who try to engage him in a battle of wits find that they are badly outgunned.

Maybe we could start a new trend by calling it 'trigger-cocking only (TCA)?"

Stay safe,

------------------
Roger Shambaugh
Ottawa, Kansas



[This message has been edited by KSLawman (edited March 14, 2000).]
 
Ha!!!

Just read this thread, Gothaur, that was hysterical!

RE: Lewis Carroll
There is a fine line between genius and madness. O.K, there might be a gray area ;)
 
And I am going to continue to shoot my double action only Power Custom revolvers double action. I just guess the greatest revolver shooters and the best revolver smiths in the world are just plain wrong, but that's OK with me.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>[Link to invalid postl[/quote]Originally, the term "Double Action" meant two things:<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> The single action of pulling the trigger accomplished two things: [1] It cocked the hammer back and [2] It fired the gun.
<LI> The gun had the capability to be fired in one of two ways: [1] Double action mode (as described in the first bullet item above) and [2] By manually cocking the hammer back and then pulling the trigger (i.e., single action mode).</UL>This also implied that in the event of a misfire, a second pull on the trigger would re-cock and re-drop the hammer (similar to how the Colt Pocker Nine had repeat striker capability).
 
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