"Domestic violence, restraining orders" and "gun rights"

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leadcounsel

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Just an FYI to all members of the TFL.

I want everyone here to understand their local and federal laws relating to restraining orders and domestic violence in states and the US.

Every state and the feds take this matter very seriously and if you are ever alleged to have committed domestic violence or had an intimate relationship with another person, and they attempt to get a restraining order against you, and if the restraining order is successful you will forever lose your gun rights and be subjected to federal mandatory 5 year prison sentences. You must fight this at all costs no matter the price tag.

The key things to note:
1) It's easy to manipulate the system and allege domestic violence. Things such as a loud argument, throwing things, or even hitting back in self defense can all lead to domestic violence charges. So, never have loud or public arguments that my cause someone to call the police. Many relationships over the course of a lifetime may result in these temporary heated disagreements, but may otherwise be normal relationships. We're human afterall. But the law seriously demonizes these actions and you will get into serious trouble.

2) If the police are ever called to the home of two intimate people, many states have a mandatory arrest policy, meaning someone (generally the man) is going to go to jail. So, never call the cops and never let your partner call the cops no matter how irrational the situation is.

3) Many states have a mandatory prosecution system in place.

4) Many states have a mandatory restraining order in place. Temporary restraining orders are simply and granted almost automatically and require immediate compliance until the hearing (usually within 10 days), which means you have to store your guns with the police or firearms dealer (who won’t give them back if the permanent order is granted later). Permanent Restraining orders are easy to obtain and if there was an intimate relationship the federal law forever prohibits the restrained party from owning a gun, selling his guns, or being in possession or in the same room as a gun. If you violate the law, the mandatory prison sentence is a minimum of 5 years.

5) It’s estimated that the overwhelming majority of allegations of domestic violence and restraining orders are abusing the system for a variety of reasons. And, they undermine the legitimate cases and overburden the courts. All men and women should be outraged at this process and demand that it be corrected.

As you can imagine all of this is a liberal and feminist construct.

So, the lesson learned here is that the law is harsh and swift and unfair, but it’s the law. NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER give an intimate partner the opportunity to take out a restraining order against you.

This is a left wing "end around" attack at mostly male gun ownership in America and should be brought to everyones' attention.

For more information, please see: http://www.dvmen.org/dv.htm#DVtitlepage
 
leadcounsel, TRO's and DV charges are two entirely differents birds.

TRO's, while they will cause you to lose your right to posses a gun, usually end and your rights are restored at that point. See Lautenburg Amendment. They do not cause you to go to jail.

Being actually charged with DV is a criminal charge, even if only misdemeanor. And yes, you will lose your right. Permanently.
 
O my god....

Things such as a loud argument, throwing things, or even hitting back in self defense can all lead to domestic violence charges.
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Throwing things? "hitting"? What responsible gun owner "throws things" or hits his intimate partner?

many states have a mandatory arrest policy, meaning someone (generally the man) is going to go to jail. So, never call the cops and never let your partner call the cops no matter how irrational the situation is.
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If you are in such an irrantional scenario that the cops wouyld be called, you need to get out. Furthermore, to imply that the cops just arrest "someone" without more is untrue....Further more let me let you in to a little secret...the majosrity of abusers are....men.....

As you can imagine all of this is a liberal and feminist construct.
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O really? Im not a liberal or a feminist and I deplore domestic violenece...and beaters shouldnt own guns.

This is a left wing "end around" attack at mostly male gun ownership in America and should be brought to everyones' attention.
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Most felons are male...we prohibit felons from owning guns..is that a left wing construct too.

Any law can be abused by the way

WildiminshockAlaska
 
To clarify a few points:

I am not now or ever defending legitimate domestic violence. But there is a difference between a heated argument where a person might throw something, physically move the other person aside when s/he refuses to move (for instance to bypass a doorway) name calling -- which are not real domestic violence -- and a true beating of someone or regular verbal and emotional abuse -- which are legitimate DV.

Most "domestic violence" perps are not men, but in fact it's generally evenly split. However, first of all men are much less likely to call the police or report it. Second, when a cop is called and both man and women are angry, maybe both are bruised (maybe the woman attempted to punch the man, he blocked causing a bruise on her arm, etc.) the cops will generally arrest the man if the cops cannot determine who is at fault (ask any cop).

A TRO and a PRO are not criminal. However, violating one is contempt of court with jail time attached. It's easy for a manipulative woman to claim that the restrained party was harassing her and requires zero evidence and requires the restrained party to defend the alleged violation, further harassing him.

As I believe I said earlier, and "intimate relationship" restraining order WILL result in confiscation of any and all of your guns.

Sure, laws can be abused, but these "battered women" laws are easily abused and require no evidence other than a tearful woman telling the court I was in fear of my life. That's literally all it takes.

Restraining orders are permanent and nearly impossible to get overturned. They are damaging to your career, prohibit you from certain jobs (any job where trust, law enforcement, military, coaching, etc. is required) and possession of firearms.

I want to give an example of a case here in Colorado that had high profile. Hockey goal tender Patrick Roy (very very famous and very very rich hall of fame goalie) and his wife got into a heated argument. In his rage, he stormed to the other side of his house endangering NO person. HE damaged the doors to a room in his own house. He didn't hurt or threaten his wifel. The police were called. Patrick Roy was arrested, charged with Domestic Violence and convicted despite his wife demanding the charges be dropped and refusing to testify against him. As a result, he can no longer own or be in possession of firearms.
 
Alaska, my friend, thank you very much. The voice of sanity is a often but a whisper here.

Im sorry, guys, if you do not possess the maturity to leave the argument before it escalates, you do not have the levity of mind to possess a firearm. The Lautenberg Ammendment, which the DV laws fall under, is actually one that makes sense. Cops are no different than ya'll. If we get in trouble for DV, or have a VPO filed against us, we lose our jobs, as we cannot carry a gun. You folks bitch and moan about equality and us vs. them, here ya go. Now youre gonna bitch about a law that makes sense, and is equal in enforcement.


In my experience, Victims Protective Orders are not just handed out. If the half filinf for it is lying in order to make life tough for the other half, the judge will know. Judges are normally stupid, and they do this for a living. The folks who have a VPO against them that Ive dealt with deserved it.
 
Second, when a cop is called and both man and women are angry, maybe both are bruised (maybe the woman attempted to punch the man, he blocked causing a bruise on her arm, etc.) the cops will generally arrest the man if the cops cannot determine who is at fault (ask any cop).
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Ok, ask me. Im any cop. This is utter BS. If both parties have marks, both parties go to jail. Period. Since Lautenberg, Mutual Combat doesnt fly anymore. Unless one parties marks are clearly defensive in nature, then they both get a ride.

For the record, I fell that the instances of men being abused is under reported. I also feel, however, that men far, far, far, far outweigh women in being the abuser. Ask any cop.:rolleyes:
 
HE damaged the doors to a room in his own house
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Ah now there is a calm rational fella...

Boy if I was a woman and had some toothless hockey goalie smashin up the house I would feel so secure about him owning guns :rolleyes:

WildnormalfolksdonthitAlaska
 
But there is a difference between a heated argument where a person might throw something, physically move the other person aside when s/he refuses to move (for instance to bypass a doorway) name calling -- which are not real domestic violence -- and a true beating of someone or regular verbal and emotional abuse -- which are legitimate DV.
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Bull flop...ya toss stuff around while angry thats violence, put your hands on someone, thats violence, scream foul names and threats, violence...

Lets see Lead Counsel...your out on the street wearing your bullet proof vest and two guns...some one stands in your face and screams foul names at you, then picks up a rock ad throws it in a rage, busts up your briefcase on the ground, and when you go to leave he blocks you....you a victim of violence? You gonna feel threatened....?

Wildhmmmm?Alaska
 
I will go with lilysdad and WildAlaska on this one

Get anger management if you need to. Don't get too egotized that you end up having to "be right." For godsakes, get in your car, find a rural road, blast loud music, and drive as fast as your car will take you. Heck, they can't take your guns away for traffic violations...just don't make your traffic violations into a felony!!

Or even better, take a walk, a far walk, and go somewhere else. Perhaps to a divorce lawyer!!
 
hmm

WildIcouldn'tagreewithyoumorebecauseyouspeakthetruthAlaska

That's all I'm gonna say about that.

Hitters, screamers, uncontrollable tempers, throwers...all violent and shouldn't have access to firearms. Of course this is just MY opinion.
 
Some people apparently have never been in a bad marriage, or have never been married to a psycho. My first wife had a tendency to go ape to the point of foaming at the mouth, from time to time. I would be calm and wondering what in the world had happened. Chemical imbalance, as it turns out, fairly easily handled with the right prescriptions. But there is no doubt that was capable of calling the cops while she was in one of those spitting fits and had me put through the wringer, just out of pure meaness. No, I never abused her, but when cops are called to a scene and the woman says she has been abused, the man can get shafted.

I believe that there are women, and men, out there that would happily set up their spouse by calling in the cops for a DV call, and even injuring themselves to make it stick. There are some mean people in marriages that will do anything, rational or not, just to hurt their spouse when they are angry. Or if they were setting up a divorce.
 
:rolleyes:

Sorry guys, but the cops who respond to these calls are not ignorant. We can tell the difference between the real deal and the divoce preemption calls. Ive been there, and seen both. The latter doesnt happen near as much as the anti-Lautenberg pundits claim, but it does happen.
 
Nothing is 100%. In the cases that I have doubts, the case gets referred to the District Attorney, and if he feels there is probable cause, a warrant is issued. Period. I do not, and will not, arrest on a maybe, or a could be, only a probably.
 
Also, keep in mind that some states (just going on DE here), where Domestic Violence has occured, can have the abused party file a Protection From Abuse (PFA) order. There are 2 types: No contact (at all) and no unlawful contact. These are usually in effect for a year, and the offender gets to go on Level I probation (with frequent visits to their Probation Officer and urine testing), then after 6 months (with a nice probation record), down to Level II probation. Domestic Violence Counseling will also be required (group thing, with other offenders).

Depending on what type of PFA, this would mean that the offender either can never set foot near the victim (that's a no contact order - including their kids and house), or the offender can interact lawfully w/ the victim (in case there are mutual children involved - that's the no unlawful contact version). In the "no unlawful contact" version, IF the victim feels threatened in ANY way when the offender is around her (say, for visitation w/ their kids), it's off to jail automatically for the offender, no questions asked. Not good for the offender if the victim is an evil bitter woman, even after the offender pays almost all of his dues and is 15 days away from being in the clear.

After the 1 year probation period is over, and the Domestic Violence Counseling sessions are satisfied, the Domestic violence incident is expunged from the offender's record. Now, he may have any weapons back that he had prior to the incident, or he may go out and purchase a firearm. It would be like the incident never happened.

It is easier to say "just walk away" than it is for some people to actually do it. Especially with the soon-to-be-victim totally instigating a situation. Yes, if you're married you shouldn't fight at all, not to mention so violently that the police are called in. Sometimes, the S really HTF, and a situation can get totally out of hand before one knows it, what with the anger, adrenaline, words and insults, etc.... Add to that resentment if the marriage isn't what it used to be, financial troubles, failed counseling attempts, parent pressure, job problems... It can all add up to a DV case waiting to happen.

Does all that mean that someone, just from one mistake during a fight, should lose their rights to own a firearm? No. The offender satisfies probation, takes DV counseling classes, and repays his debt to society, then he should be able to own a firearm. Obviously this might be different if the DV included threatening the victim WITH a gun. It can't be a blanket law being put on ALL DV offenders. My point is, that just because someone is involved in a DV case, doesn't mean that their right to EVER own a firearm again (or in the future) should be taken away.
 
Several points:

1) "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Will someone please show me where it says that a person with a short temper cannot own a firearm? Some gun rights activists you bunch are! You yell at your wife because you caught her cheating on you, she calls the police, and suddenly you have a $10,000 attorney bill, have been arrested and jailed, and have a restraining order, and can never possess another gun and probably lose you job or profession.... Fair?? I think no...

2) Allegations are easy to make and exaggerate and people lie all the time. These are pretty serious ramifications for a judicial system that result in the DENIAL of your constitutional rights.

3) These laws only affect those that aren't going to commit a crime. It doesn't prevent a single violent minded person from carrying a gun or committing a crime.

4) Further, why stop at guns. Why not also ban knifes, sticks and stones?

These laws are not related to domestic violence and are too easy to pass and are way too heavy handed. Further, many of these are "civil law" violations with civil law burdens of proof and no right to a jury trial, yet carry significant criminal penalties. Can someone tell me how these are related and why you should lose your gun rights for violating a civil law (relating to restraining orders).
 
Wher does it say that felons cant possess firearms? Wher does it say that those with serious mental definicincies cannot won firearms? Where does it say that 3 yr old children cannot own firearms?

it doesnt, but its common sense. Again, I deal with this everyday, and have seen ZERO negative ramifications from it. Period. Im sure it happens, but you know what? All systems have flaws.
 
Another situation. 19 yr olds at college. boy meets girl, they have a one night stand, she's a tramp. he's infactuated and harmlessly follows and calls her a few times. she is annoyed and filed a restraining order. for whatever reason, he ignores it or cannot hire a good lawyer and loses. no more gun rights.... fair and reasonable?

I've read that these are often abused in the following situation: Custody of children or property. Wife is having an affair. Alleges DV or files for restraining order, maybe injures herself or complains to friends about abuse, which is all manufactured. Husband is now kept from home, viewed as unfit parent, and wife gets kids and property. Vindictive yes. Fair, no.


Edited to clarify: 19 year old girl is sleeping around and more casual about sex than the 19 year old boy in this example, for those who clearly are hung up on moot points...
 
You yell at your wife because you caught her cheating on you,
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boy meets girl, they have a one night stand, she's a tramp.
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Dude you have to check your attitude about women. They arent possessions that you can yell at, they arent tramps because they have "one night stands"

WildwhoaAlaska
 
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