Dog Use?
- Thread starter roy reali
- Start date
Wild Bill Bucks
New member
I'm a little reluctant to post on the subject, as I have only hunted with dogs for coon, but I will try not to offend anyone.
Almost every kind of game in Southeastern Oklahoma, is hunted with a dog, from hogs down to quail, and I don't think anyone has to much of a problem with that. When it comes to deer, however, it becomes a real problem.
Not only is it illegal here, but I think it takes a little bit of the prestige out of the hunt, since the dog is doing the hunting. It makes a better story to tell when you have stalked a nice 10 pointer, for several hours, and have made a good clean kill, than it does to say that the dogs bayed him up, and you shot him.
Most of the time, when I have been around deer chasing dogs, they seem to scatter every deer in the forest, and generally the deer takes the dogs so far away from where they started, that most of them give up on the trail, and come back home or they never come back at all.
I have lost several coon dogs this way, and wind up having to leave my coat on the ground, and come back the next day or two and see if my dog is laying on it.
I had a dog run a deer about 5 years ago, and we listened until we could not hear him any longer, and gave up on getting him back. I put my coat where the pick-up was parked and hoped he would come back to it in the next couple of days. Generally they will get tired of the chase, and will be laying on the coat, waiting for you to come back. This was not the case this time. I went back every day for three days, and the dog never showed up, and I gave up on him. DOG GONE.
About 4 days later a man from Eufaula, Oklahoma called and said my dog had showed up at his house, in pretty bad shape. His house was almost 40 miles from where I was hunting, and the dogs feet were so sore that he was almost tip toeing when he walked. The only good thing about this, was that the dog broke himself from running deer. Until the day the dog died, he never ran another deer.
Almost every kind of game in Southeastern Oklahoma, is hunted with a dog, from hogs down to quail, and I don't think anyone has to much of a problem with that. When it comes to deer, however, it becomes a real problem.
Not only is it illegal here, but I think it takes a little bit of the prestige out of the hunt, since the dog is doing the hunting. It makes a better story to tell when you have stalked a nice 10 pointer, for several hours, and have made a good clean kill, than it does to say that the dogs bayed him up, and you shot him.
Most of the time, when I have been around deer chasing dogs, they seem to scatter every deer in the forest, and generally the deer takes the dogs so far away from where they started, that most of them give up on the trail, and come back home or they never come back at all.
I have lost several coon dogs this way, and wind up having to leave my coat on the ground, and come back the next day or two and see if my dog is laying on it.
I had a dog run a deer about 5 years ago, and we listened until we could not hear him any longer, and gave up on getting him back. I put my coat where the pick-up was parked and hoped he would come back to it in the next couple of days. Generally they will get tired of the chase, and will be laying on the coat, waiting for you to come back. This was not the case this time. I went back every day for three days, and the dog never showed up, and I gave up on him. DOG GONE.
About 4 days later a man from Eufaula, Oklahoma called and said my dog had showed up at his house, in pretty bad shape. His house was almost 40 miles from where I was hunting, and the dogs feet were so sore that he was almost tip toeing when he walked. The only good thing about this, was that the dog broke himself from running deer. Until the day the dog died, he never ran another deer.
I've got a few reasons....
I still hunt. A dog comes through and I see no deer for at least a week. (maybe that's just my bad luck?!)
Dogs can't be controlled. They may benefit one hunter or hunting party, but the dozen or so who's hunting is ruined doesn't justify it.
Have you seen the way the majority of dog hunters treat the dogs? Not cool, to say the least.
Feral dogs are worse than coyotes. Not only do they eat/harass/stalk the wildlife, but the ones I have run into were aggressive towards humans.
One more time....Dogs can't be controlled. They don't know boundaries, laws, rules, respect other hunters, etc... they are beasts of burden. In this case running after wildlife.
I still hunt. A dog comes through and I see no deer for at least a week. (maybe that's just my bad luck?!)
Dogs can't be controlled. They may benefit one hunter or hunting party, but the dozen or so who's hunting is ruined doesn't justify it.
Have you seen the way the majority of dog hunters treat the dogs? Not cool, to say the least.
Feral dogs are worse than coyotes. Not only do they eat/harass/stalk the wildlife, but the ones I have run into were aggressive towards humans.
One more time....Dogs can't be controlled. They don't know boundaries, laws, rules, respect other hunters, etc... they are beasts of burden. In this case running after wildlife.
I have only run my own dogs on hogs but i have hunted rabbit behind an ol' cajun guys beagles.
But for hog hunting it is 2 fold. Number one is tradition... It has been a method of gathering up hogs since the earliest days of america. When folks free ranged "ear marked" cattle and hogs the dogs were used to catch an animal for food.
I don't so much say tradition is the best reason but it is a biggie.
The biggest reason we and many types of dog hunt sports use the dog is production. As a nuisance animal hogs need GONE and no method can come any where the production of hoggin'. The trapping doesn't get much more than small stuff, the big breeder hogs are a rare catch. Shooting them is only semi-productive if you have groups up on open terrain. They seem to be quite elusive living some hard to get at places. I know that it would be real hard to beat 20-30 per day that can be caught with a few guys and their teams.
Brent
But for hog hunting it is 2 fold. Number one is tradition... It has been a method of gathering up hogs since the earliest days of america. When folks free ranged "ear marked" cattle and hogs the dogs were used to catch an animal for food.
I don't so much say tradition is the best reason but it is a biggie.
The biggest reason we and many types of dog hunt sports use the dog is production. As a nuisance animal hogs need GONE and no method can come any where the production of hoggin'. The trapping doesn't get much more than small stuff, the big breeder hogs are a rare catch. Shooting them is only semi-productive if you have groups up on open terrain. They seem to be quite elusive living some hard to get at places. I know that it would be real hard to beat 20-30 per day that can be caught with a few guys and their teams.
Brent
While the idea of a dog in camp really does not bother me as my old Lab liked to go, using one in the field really doesn't make sense to most people I believe. Particularly for us western spot and stalk type hunters. Also I suppose it's a little ludicrous to tree stand hunters.
Ultimately I think it interferes w/ the mentality of beating the game on its' own terms. Nobody cares about overabundant animals like rabbits and coons. Not the case w/ a Rocky Mtn elk.
Kinda like the mentality that fly fishermen have as compared to those who use bait.
Graduating from "must kill" to "outthink".
elkman06
Ultimately I think it interferes w/ the mentality of beating the game on its' own terms. Nobody cares about overabundant animals like rabbits and coons. Not the case w/ a Rocky Mtn elk.
Kinda like the mentality that fly fishermen have as compared to those who use bait.
Graduating from "must kill" to "outthink".
elkman06
I've only done it once, about 20 years ago in Mississippi. Went hunting with a friend on his family's land. I was a bit skeptical at first and was convinced it was not fair. After hunting there for several days and seeing how they did it I am more open to the idea.
They placed us on ground and tree stands in a thick swampy jungle that was almost completely surrounded by water. A big loop of the river encircled about 300 acres. In fact we had to use boats to get to our stands. They used beagles. The dogs did not chase the deer, just bothered them and kept them moving. I saw a lot of does and small bucks but nothing I wanted to shoot. The deer would stop and feed a while until they heard dogs barking in the distance then move along.
They placed us on ground and tree stands in a thick swampy jungle that was almost completely surrounded by water. A big loop of the river encircled about 300 acres. In fact we had to use boats to get to our stands. They used beagles. The dogs did not chase the deer, just bothered them and kept them moving. I saw a lot of does and small bucks but nothing I wanted to shoot. The deer would stop and feed a while until they heard dogs barking in the distance then move along.
Hunting with dogs has a long history. These breeds obviously didn't appear overnight. They were bred for the purpose over centuries in some cases.
With many hunters it's about the dogs, not about killing a deer or whatever. I know several dog men that don't even carry a gun, but they will take you with them for free just because they love it.
With many hunters it's about the dogs, not about killing a deer or whatever. I know several dog men that don't even carry a gun, but they will take you with them for free just because they love it.
re:zerojunk
You mention a long history. From what I have read, humans using dogs as hunting assistants dates back to prehistoric times. One theory even suggests that this may have been one of the reasons we survived but our cousins, the Neanderthals did not. Our ancestors formed a partnership with dogs and they did not. It may have given us a competitive edge over them.
The point I am making is that humans hunting with canine help might date back thousands of years. That would make it as natural as hunting itself. Wouldn't it?
You mention a long history. From what I have read, humans using dogs as hunting assistants dates back to prehistoric times. One theory even suggests that this may have been one of the reasons we survived but our cousins, the Neanderthals did not. Our ancestors formed a partnership with dogs and they did not. It may have given us a competitive edge over them.
The point I am making is that humans hunting with canine help might date back thousands of years. That would make it as natural as hunting itself. Wouldn't it?
Yup... Roy, I feel it is a real natural instinct. Yes we have added radio tracking systems and "cut gear" in at least hog hunting. But I bet ancient man was always updating his hunts as well
It is about feeding the family with the least expense of self or energy.
Brent
It is about feeding the family with the least expense of self or energy.
Brent
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Lotsa difference between wide open country and built-up, developed lands. Dogs don't generally respect property lines, and they don't necessarily know the difference between deer habitat and a sheep pasture.
Most "no dogs" laws, then, have to do with trespass and damage, moreso than morality. However, in these modern days with the influence of such as PETA and the Sierra Club, their notions of right and wrong enter into the noise level.
If it's legal, there's no reason not to hunt with dogs so long as your dog remains under your control and doesn't bug the neighbors. Folks talk about dogs running deer in a hunt, but deer gotta run from coyotes and wolves, anyway--and it happifies the dog. Coyotes will kill foxes if they get a chance, although I don't know if they'll do a lengthy-chase effort.
Most "no dogs" laws, then, have to do with trespass and damage, moreso than morality. However, in these modern days with the influence of such as PETA and the Sierra Club, their notions of right and wrong enter into the noise level.
If it's legal, there's no reason not to hunt with dogs so long as your dog remains under your control and doesn't bug the neighbors. Folks talk about dogs running deer in a hunt, but deer gotta run from coyotes and wolves, anyway--and it happifies the dog. Coyotes will kill foxes if they get a chance, although I don't know if they'll do a lengthy-chase effort.
I have to say, despite my last post I really don't disagree with it. I would really like to go someday. Especially for hogs...
I disagree with the way most of them treat their dogs.
I disagree with people running dogs along the property line not caring that the land I lease is a no dog lease.
I disagree with said people getting mad and nearly assaulting you because they can't keep their dogs on their property.
I disagree with said dogs growling at you because you are trying to shoo them away instead of killing them.
If you can't tell, I have had bad experiences with the dogs and their owners. Not just once, but multiple times. This may very well be what sours most people to dog hunting...
I disagree with the way most of them treat their dogs.
I disagree with people running dogs along the property line not caring that the land I lease is a no dog lease.
I disagree with said people getting mad and nearly assaulting you because they can't keep their dogs on their property.
I disagree with said dogs growling at you because you are trying to shoo them away instead of killing them.
If you can't tell, I have had bad experiences with the dogs and their owners. Not just once, but multiple times. This may very well be what sours most people to dog hunting...
Yes, there has been a long history of man using dogs in hunting and in war and for protection etc.
Today is just a little different.
Man didn't used to have a firearm that was capable of taking game at 300 yards and beyond---they didn't have 4 wheelers and jeeps and radio collars to pursue the dogs and the hence the game.
The practice of medicine wasn't what it was today, there was no life flight and the hospitals and medical care were not what they are today.
"Years Ago" if a man broke his leg he could die---get tore up by a hog and the resulting injuries could be fatal---blood loss, infection etc. Today you just flip open your cell phone and help arrives in minutes---usually.
Not the same and not much of a "historical comparison" as to the way dogs are used today.
Leave the four wheelers and jeeps home---loose the tracking devices and do it in a "historical manner" that would be different.
I don't have a problem with someone using dogs where it is legal---It isn't for me but if the laws are obeyed---go for it.
I do think though that it should be limited to private land and not interfere with someone hunting on public land.
I have never hunted with dogs but would ask those that do---Have you ever had trouble on public land?? That is, have your dogs ever bothered another hunter that was not in your party?? Acted aggressively towards someone they have run into??
Have you ever had a incident where your dogs encountered "Suzy" walking her little lab??
I just have to believe the answer is YES.
Don't know how I would react if I ran into 4 or 5 Pitbulls in high prey/fight drive and didn't see a handler right there that could "attempt" to control them.
Pack mentality in canines can make otherwise safe dogs do things that they normally would not do.
Lastly, I have to say, I can't stand the sight of someone who is 100lbs overweight using dogs and 4 wheelers to " hunt" game---the kind of guy who gets all his exercise opening the frig door or forking food in his mouth and then calls himself a hunter----Historically, he wouldn't last a week in the woods.
Dipper
Today is just a little different.
Man didn't used to have a firearm that was capable of taking game at 300 yards and beyond---they didn't have 4 wheelers and jeeps and radio collars to pursue the dogs and the hence the game.
The practice of medicine wasn't what it was today, there was no life flight and the hospitals and medical care were not what they are today.
"Years Ago" if a man broke his leg he could die---get tore up by a hog and the resulting injuries could be fatal---blood loss, infection etc. Today you just flip open your cell phone and help arrives in minutes---usually.
Not the same and not much of a "historical comparison" as to the way dogs are used today.
Leave the four wheelers and jeeps home---loose the tracking devices and do it in a "historical manner" that would be different.
I don't have a problem with someone using dogs where it is legal---It isn't for me but if the laws are obeyed---go for it.
I do think though that it should be limited to private land and not interfere with someone hunting on public land.
I have never hunted with dogs but would ask those that do---Have you ever had trouble on public land?? That is, have your dogs ever bothered another hunter that was not in your party?? Acted aggressively towards someone they have run into??
Have you ever had a incident where your dogs encountered "Suzy" walking her little lab??
I just have to believe the answer is YES.
Don't know how I would react if I ran into 4 or 5 Pitbulls in high prey/fight drive and didn't see a handler right there that could "attempt" to control them.
Pack mentality in canines can make otherwise safe dogs do things that they normally would not do.
Lastly, I have to say, I can't stand the sight of someone who is 100lbs overweight using dogs and 4 wheelers to " hunt" game---the kind of guy who gets all his exercise opening the frig door or forking food in his mouth and then calls himself a hunter----Historically, he wouldn't last a week in the woods.
Dipper
Only One
There is only one "big" game animal that can be hunted with dogs here, mountain lions. All other large game can not be hunted with Fido's help. In fact, our wardens have very little sense of humor seeing a dog out at all during deer season.
Which of these methods would you consider more sporting?
A guy using dogs to hunt a big game animal with a primitive weapon to make the kill. Or another fellow not using a dog, but using a .300 Super Duper Magnum in a bolt action rifle, having a scope with a range finder and drop compensator. In my opinion I would consider the first dude as more of a sportsman.
There is only one "big" game animal that can be hunted with dogs here, mountain lions. All other large game can not be hunted with Fido's help. In fact, our wardens have very little sense of humor seeing a dog out at all during deer season.
Which of these methods would you consider more sporting?
A guy using dogs to hunt a big game animal with a primitive weapon to make the kill. Or another fellow not using a dog, but using a .300 Super Duper Magnum in a bolt action rifle, having a scope with a range finder and drop compensator. In my opinion I would consider the first dude as more of a sportsman.
Which of these methods would you consider more sporting?
A guy using dogs to hunt a big game animal with a primitive weapon to make the kill. Or another fellow not using a dog, but using a .300 Super Duper Magnum in a bolt action rifle, having a scope with a range finder and drop compensator. In my opinion I would consider the first dude as more of a sportsman.
I might too---IF the first dude did not have electronic means ---radio collar-- to track the game---was not on a four wheeler or in a jeep--and his dog didn't bother me.
Dipper
A guy using dogs to hunt a big game animal with a primitive weapon to make the kill. Or another fellow not using a dog, but using a .300 Super Duper Magnum in a bolt action rifle, having a scope with a range finder and drop compensator. In my opinion I would consider the first dude as more of a sportsman.
I might too---IF the first dude did not have electronic means ---radio collar-- to track the game---was not on a four wheeler or in a jeep--and his dog didn't bother me.
Dipper
I am not sure why the prohibition against using dogs in hunting big game. Dogs are much more effectivein finding and tracking game. Perhaps the myth of "one man against the animal's senses? Perhaps it's inhumane to course deer like European royalty did for centuries? Maybe it's the whole "sport hunting" vs "subsistence hunting" idea? We use dogs for so many other types of hunting that it does seem a bit odd that we will not allow big game hunting with dogs.
Dipper... If any of my dogs act aggressively towards another dog or human in my party or not they have eaten their last meal... No excuses! I have had one dog that just wouldn't train out of that and he was PTS. I am a strict man about this as I do use bulldogs for catch.
That is one of the hard parts of getting GOOD hog dogs.
As for not using modern gear... NO CAN DO! It is too hard to procure GOOD dogs. Either you are buying $5,000+ dogs or you are like me... hoping for young started unproven dogs from good dogmen that refuse to sell dogs, as they only breed for them self and give the excess away. These free dogs are few and far between. Hog hunting is dangerous for dogs and humans but would be ridiculous to not use technology. That would be like tossing babies to the wolves. Injuries will happen but it is the dogman's job to prevent the preventable.
Brent
That is one of the hard parts of getting GOOD hog dogs.
As for not using modern gear... NO CAN DO! It is too hard to procure GOOD dogs. Either you are buying $5,000+ dogs or you are like me... hoping for young started unproven dogs from good dogmen that refuse to sell dogs, as they only breed for them self and give the excess away. These free dogs are few and far between. Hog hunting is dangerous for dogs and humans but would be ridiculous to not use technology. That would be like tossing babies to the wolves. Injuries will happen but it is the dogman's job to prevent the preventable.
Brent
I am a huge fan of using dogs for birds. I hunted with some guys from Iowa that were up here hunting birds last fall and dogs are awesome for that but I have never felt even slightly inclined to use dogs for big game. I primarily hunt mule deer and if you need a dog to find one of those around here you better stay home haha.
In my opinion the guy with the .300 magnum the big scope and the range finder is much easier on the deer. Something about using dogs to scare up deer and then taking a shot at it with a muzzle loader or shotgun slug doesnt sit right with me. I dunno maybe im a sissy but I like to take a deer as quickly as I possibly can and not put any stress on it at all. I dont wanna spend my last moments on earth being chased or being gut shot so i try to deliver the same courtesy to the deer.
In my opinion the guy with the .300 magnum the big scope and the range finder is much easier on the deer. Something about using dogs to scare up deer and then taking a shot at it with a muzzle loader or shotgun slug doesnt sit right with me. I dunno maybe im a sissy but I like to take a deer as quickly as I possibly can and not put any stress on it at all. I dont wanna spend my last moments on earth being chased or being gut shot so i try to deliver the same courtesy to the deer.
Hogdogs,
Thanks for the discussion and thanks for not taking anything I say personnel, because it is not meant to be.
I KNOW how hard it is to get a good dog--believe me--been there done that!!
It's ALWAYS a gamble no matter how much or little you pay and when you do get a good one it is something to treasure.
I don't understand why you have to use technology in the hunt--you say it's like throwing babies to the wolves--how so?
Remember, I never hunted with dogs so I'm probably missing something and not thinking of something obvious.
If you mean that without technology you may loose a good dog, that I can understand.
One other "problem" that I do have though is what Trapp brought up and that is how SOME guys treat their dogs.
Long story short.
I was invited to go look at a guys dogs--Pitts--he used them for hunting.
Got to his " dog lot" and looked around --he had about 10 dogs.
One had a bad eye---matted, he was squinting etc.
Another had an obvious limp and the rest looked OK--pretty thin but OK--and I realize you generally keep working dogs on the thin side.
Conditions weren't the best---flies, feces, dirty bowels, all dogs staked out with heavy chains etc.
I looked at the guy and said " dang man, what is your VET BILL in a year---I know what it costs me to keep two dogs in good shape, what the heck does it cost you?? I mean you got heart worm meds and flea prevention, shots and check ups and injuries and such---WOW, what do you spend??"
BLANK FREAKIN STARE!!
Answer--" Well, I don't know about all that now---we look after them ourselves and if one is to bad hurt we just take em out back and make it quick."
Translation ---they don't get any professional care--to much money!!
Can't go along with that---I was polite and got out of there---noticing the new 4 wheelers and satellite TV receiver on the house.
Junk like that just puts me off big time.
Peace,
Dipper
Thanks for the discussion and thanks for not taking anything I say personnel, because it is not meant to be.
I KNOW how hard it is to get a good dog--believe me--been there done that!!
It's ALWAYS a gamble no matter how much or little you pay and when you do get a good one it is something to treasure.
I don't understand why you have to use technology in the hunt--you say it's like throwing babies to the wolves--how so?
Remember, I never hunted with dogs so I'm probably missing something and not thinking of something obvious.
If you mean that without technology you may loose a good dog, that I can understand.
One other "problem" that I do have though is what Trapp brought up and that is how SOME guys treat their dogs.
Long story short.
I was invited to go look at a guys dogs--Pitts--he used them for hunting.
Got to his " dog lot" and looked around --he had about 10 dogs.
One had a bad eye---matted, he was squinting etc.
Another had an obvious limp and the rest looked OK--pretty thin but OK--and I realize you generally keep working dogs on the thin side.
Conditions weren't the best---flies, feces, dirty bowels, all dogs staked out with heavy chains etc.
I looked at the guy and said " dang man, what is your VET BILL in a year---I know what it costs me to keep two dogs in good shape, what the heck does it cost you?? I mean you got heart worm meds and flea prevention, shots and check ups and injuries and such---WOW, what do you spend??"
BLANK FREAKIN STARE!!
Answer--" Well, I don't know about all that now---we look after them ourselves and if one is to bad hurt we just take em out back and make it quick."
Translation ---they don't get any professional care--to much money!!
Can't go along with that---I was polite and got out of there---noticing the new 4 wheelers and satellite TV receiver on the house.
Junk like that just puts me off big time.
Peace,
Dipper