Does reasonable suspicion become probabale cause?

[Bravo25]

This is mostly geared toward a response froma a LEO, but all input is welcome.
With repect to the title, I live in a state that has not yet CCW, or OC. I do carry with me an emergency backpack that contains (among many other emergency supplies) a 1911A1, and 2 mags. This is a military looking 3-day pack. It has many attachment points, and has a folding knife, and pouches with magazines for the 1911. The law in most states clearly is that the LEO must be to articulate probable cause in order to search without consent. Thus they must see something that gives this to them. (we aren't talking about drugs so we will dispense with the smell factor). So, although the pistol is closed well within the backpack, would the appearance of the type, and the attachments of a knife, and perhaps the recognition of the magazines translate to reasonable suspicion, and then reasonable suspicion to probable cause? The visual evidence could give reasonable suspicion that something else may be contained in the bag, but no other visual visual indicators are there. i.e. you cannot see the pistol, and it is not "printed through the bag.

 

[MRex21]

This is an unusual question to answer.

On the one hand, merely by walking down the street, having a 3-day pack on does not achieve the level of 'reasonable suspicion'.

However, by your own description in your post, you are breaking the law. In this case, you are certainly well within the 'probable cause' camp. In fact, you should be arrested, and as a result be subject to a search incident to a lawful arrest. Seeing the magazines would lead a reasonable, prudent person to believe that the firearm for those magazines was present in the bag.

I understand your desire to carry concealed, but you are walking a fine line. In California, you would be arrested and booked. Good luck, my man.

 

[sendec]

The visible magazines would clinch it. The context in which the bag is carried would also come into play.

The fact that it is a military pack means nothing.

 

[Eghad]

I would say talk to a lawyer in your locality.

I assume you are packing this stuff in your vehicle and not toting it around in plain view?

In that case I would see what the laws for having a pistol in a car is in your state.

If you are in violation the first thing that might draw attention is the knife if it is one of those combat/survival types. It may not be legal to possess. If you can see the magazines visibly that would be the second thing.

 

[Bravo25]

As a general rule I just toss it in the back seat of the vehicle. I thnk I have read enough now to just put the knife, and the magazines inside the bag out of view. As most have stated the apperance of the back pack should not be enough for reasonable suspicion. As long as nothing attached to the outside indicates further.

sendec, can you explain what you meant by this...

The context in which the bag is carried would also come into play.

Thanks

 

[MRex21]

Ok...did you not notice the part where you are breaking the law?

 

[Bravo25]

Ok...did you not notice the part where you are breaking the law?

Of course I am breaking the law. I am not disclaiming this. Everyone is breaking a law. We just haven't poured over enough of them to find out which ones. I understand that. There is a thing known as the moral imperative. The SCOTUS has ruled that the LEO community is not responsible for the protection of myself, or my family. The state refuses to accept this, and refuses to act in the best interest of the people. I can not, in good faith submit my family, and myslef to no protection.
I don't condone randomly violating the law, but as the people in NO who were taking food to feed thier families are guilty of looting, they do not fall in the same catagory as thoose looting big screen tv's.

Truth be known I could probably just stick the Glock in there, and claim that I subject to call out at any time for a bank escort (which I am). The idea of the thread was never to question the legality of it, but how to keep from giving enough reasonable suspicion that could lead to probable cause, and my being searched, and so on, and so on.

Without those factors in play it doesn't matter what is in there, any lawyer worth his pay is going to get it thrown out.

 

[MRex21]

Of course I am breaking the law. I am not disclaiming this. Everyone is breaking a law. We just haven't poured over enough of them to find out which ones. I understand that. There is a thing known as the moral imperative. The SCOTUS has ruled that the LEO community is not responsible for the protection of myself, or my family.

Is that what you will be telling the officer who books you?

I don't condone randomly violating the law, but as the people in NO who were taking food to feed thier families are guilty of looting, they do not fall in the same catagory as thoose looting big screen tv's.

Yes, you do. The looters in New Orleans are non sequitur.

Truth be known I could probably just stick the Glock in there, and claim that I subject to call out at any time for a bank escort (which I am). The idea of the thread was never to question the legality of it, but how to keep from giving enough reasonable suspicion that could lead to probable cause, and my being searched, and so on, and so on.

So, in essence you are asking people to suggest ways that you can circumvent the law.

Without those factors in play it doesn't matter what is in there, any lawyer worth his pay is going to get it thrown out.

Are you willing to bet your life, livelihood, and family on that? That seems rather naive.

Carrying a firearm includes carrying the burden of responsibility. Part of that responsibility is carrying within the given boundaries of the law. Like it or not, it's there. It's what the society you live in wants. If you disagree with the law, you should go about changing it (legally), or move to a more firearms friendly area.

 

[Bravo25]

MRex21,
While I respect your views on this I don't want this to turn into an arguement between you and I. I am simply not willing to bet my life, livelihood, and my family on a legal system that proclaims I am not completely safe out in public and we can't be protected either, and then proceeds to bind my hands to protect my family. I am also working to change the laws here within the system.

 

[MRex21]

Suit yourself. It's your choice. IMO, if you are so willing to break the law, perhaps you shouldn't have a firearm in the first place. It is clear that you haven't properly thought of the responsibilities in carrying concealed.

...I am simply not willing to bet my life, livelihood, and my family on a legal system that proclaims I am not completely safe out in public and we can't be protected either, and then proceeds to bind my hands to protect my family.

And yet, you are comfortable throwing yourself on the mercies of this same system if you are arrested for carrying a loaded firearm where it is illegal?

IF you are stopped, and IF you are arrested, you will still have to explain to your family why you chose to break the law.

 

[Bravo25]

Sir,
Are you a judge or cop? I am just wondering because you have already judged, sentenced, and hung me. Without me even getting to the driveway you have me cuffed, and stuffed. It is good to know that you are so clean that you can cast the first stone. I asked about the legal aspects of "reasonable suspicion", and "probable cause". I didn't ask for your judgement, or condesending remarks about my choice of priorities. You question if I should even own a firearm. I would question by your attitude if you should even be in the LEO community. Any cop who is out just to make any arrest any way he can has no business being in public service.

IMO that is.

Perhaps now we can return to the topic at hand, and I would suggest that any further banter between you, and I be taken off the board to private message format.

 

[Redworm]

If you disagree with the law, you should go about changing it (legally),

While you have a point it should be noted that civil disobedience is a proven way to have an unjust law changed. If the public didn't break laws that were unfair to everyone then none of us would be allowed to have a beer.

 

[Wildcard]

On the one hand, merely by walking down the street, having a 3-day pack on does not achieve the level of 'reasonable suspicion'.

Well, as the gentleman in New York, IIRC, that was pulled over, tasered, held without cause, not provided legal counsel, all for driving with a kevlar helmet on.

 

[Rich Lucibella]

Bravo25 has asked a simple question of law. He hasn't asked us to engage in a criminal conspiracy. While free legal advice regarding the proper ways to transport a firearm might be appropriate, as an aside, there's zero reason why this thread has to be sidetracked in this manner.

Let's say, for argument, that Bravo's willing to leave his WMD 1911 at home because, goodness knows, self defense is against the law in NYC, Boston, DC and 27 other foreign nations. Only thing he's carrying is some spare ammo in his Emergency Pack. He's not taking it into "secure" or "sterile" areas (like the Super Dome ). He's just asking about whether he might be searched.

Fair enough?
Rich

 

[Denny Hansen]

Not offering legal advice, but a few opinions:

If the pack is in the back seat and out of your immediate control, I would see no PC to search it, though as a former LEO I may ask you to exit the vehicle and stand beside the road while we talk.

If your were wearing the pack or carrying it, an officer may have reason to search it for his personal safety. Although Terry vs. Ohio specified a “pat down” of outer clothing, if you are wearing the pack this may become one of the dreaded “gray areas.”

Where you are and what you’re doing also enters into it. Walking down a street with a bunch of other folks (who may also have backpacks) in the daylight does not constitute either suspicion or cause IMO. Standing in an alley at the rear of a closed business may give an officer reason to question you and search the pack. As you can see, there are a lot of “ifs,” “ands” and “maybes" involved.

Denny

 

[Wildcard]

My bad, back to your original question, Bravo25. Yes, If an officer, say with a military background were to see your pack, he could have reasonable suspicion to stop you and investigate further. If I were you, I would go to wally world, and buy a cheap, small, carry on bag, and put your things in it.

 

[Bravo25]

Thanks Denny, that is the type of feedback I was looking for. Wildcard might have a point. I got the backpack so that I could strap it on if I needed to, but I might find a duffle bag that it will fit into just to hide the appearance of it.

 

[MRex21]

Did I misunderstand you on this?

With repect to the title, I live in a state that has not yet CCW, or OC. I do carry with me an emergency backpack that contains (among many other emergency supplies) a 1911A1, and 2 mags.

Or maybe here?

Of course I am breaking the law.

Maybe here?

...but how to keep from giving enough reasonable suspicion that could lead to probable cause, and my being searched, and so on, and so on.

This is not legal advice. The logical answer to your original question is don't break the law. Don't try to figure out how to circumvent it...especially where firearms are involved. Your actions reflect on firearms owners as a whole. If firearms owners, as a whole, are viewed as law breakers, then what do you think will happen in the future in regards to firearms ownership, and CCW laws?

In my opinion, you should not own a firearm because you lack the capability to adequately weigh the consequences of your actions, nor do you recognize the responsibilites of carrying a firearm.

To drift back on topic, Denny is spot-on with his reply. The totality of the circumstances would dictate whether or not there was enough PC to 'stop and frisk'. There is no magic line that needs to be crossed. Denny has it exactly right.

 

[Wildcard]

In my opinion, you should not own a firearm because you lack the capability to adequately weigh the consequences of your actions, nor do you recognize the responsibilites of carrying a firearm.

Who's hind end did you pull that one out of? I, from reading his posts, do not see where he should not own a firearm. Come on.

 

[USP45usp]

Yes, If an officer, say with a military background were to see your pack, he could have reasonable suspicion to stop you and investigate further.

Huh , I don't think so. I'm a veteran and still have a lot of my gear, some of it in my car..... What does being military, or ex military, or just shopping at your local Army surplus give a person of authority PC?

The logical answer to your original question is don't break the law.

Oh geez, not another one... "Law is god, bow down to the law and don't break it, we are here to protect you" :barf:

Wayne

To clarify: I don't know if this member is LEO or not, just that this zero tolerance by some is really getting sickening.