Do you personally know anyone who has been in a shooting?

A

Andrew Bornman

New member
I only know one man who has shot and killed someone. (I'm not including military actions.) In his case it has ruined his life. He had a ranch and lumber operation in central america but has lost them and contact with his family. His uncle attempted to shoot him in the back and lost the fight. His cousins placed a price on his head and so he fled north. He hasn't seen his wife in ten years.

It isn't only the legal consequenses we have to worry about. If you kill the wrong perp you just might have to worry about revenge.
 
Generally speaking, revenge attacks are fairly rare. I do believe it is a bit more common in inter-family killings though.

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
Yes, my friend is a county deputy and back in 1989 he took a contact shot to the chest from a 45ACP. Fortunately he was wearing his vest and the shot hit his trauma plate and he was able to return fire with his 45 ACP. He fired 3 shots and got 3 hits on the BG's chest at near contact distance. He returned to work 2 or 3 weeks later and he has made full recovery physically and psychologically.
 
I don't know if this counts, but I've
interviewed around fifty people for my
books/articles. The emotions one feels
after shooting a bad guy range from
devastation to "he deserved it so I don't
worry about it." Most fall closer to the
first category. Lots of these folks have
had counseling, and one of the reasons
they talk to me is that it's therapeutic.
Robert
 
Sure, I know someone like that...me!
Growing in Central America and later Africa, I've been caught in several "episodes." One just recently in Sudan while there for a job. That's why my 226 hasn't left my side or my PPK from its ankle holster in 10 years. First one was when I was 16 and driving along with my buddies on a Guatemalan dirt road in the mountains and some idiots started shooting at us and hit the kid next to me in the front passenger seat. Took the top of his head off. Back then we always carried rifles in the jeep and the two in back grabbed them (after wiping off the gore) and started shooting back in the bush while I was hitting the gas pedal and peeing my pants. After that in my life.. the episodes only get worse.
 
New a 15 year old kid whose best friend shot him in the face with a shotgun while playing around. The kid new not to play with a gun, but the friend didn't.

A guy in high school got shot in the head with a 9mm Uzi fired out of the back of the truck he and my friend Clint were following. The people in the truck thought they were people that they had a problem with the night before.

My friend Clint killed himself with a gun a few years later. He never got over sitting on side of the road with his friends brain in his lap.

Used to know a gangbanger who had been shot 3-4 times. Mostly small caliber, but he did take a 9mm to the abdomen.

All very sad, all stupid, all a waste of kids under 18.

Teach your kids right from wrong because no one else will.
 
I have had 2 friends in a shooting, both at the wrong end. One was just recently killed by a LEO in Pa. after he fired on him. The other was killed by his brother after arguing over a pierogie. This might not count, but I shot my friend with Daisy Red Rider loaded with a finishing nail, came 1/8 inch close to piercing his carotid artery.
 
My friend was forced to defend himself on a disturbance call. A fight insued and he lost his weapon. HE kept his head and was able to get everyone out of the resturant all the time the BG had the pistol pointed at him. After he got outside he radioed for assistance and retrived the shotgun from the car. When the backup car arrived the BG opened fire. My friend returned fire with the shotgun striking the BG with two of three shots fired from the shotgun. It was determined thet the first round of buckshot never made it past the plate glass window that it took out.

The BG expired. My friend lived to tell about it.


[This message has been edited by MarkW (edited September 02, 2000).]
 
I have been involved in two incidents in which I was forced to take another life.
The first was a domestic disturbance in which my over riding feeling was anger. Anger at the wife, whom, I felt, could have prevented the shooting had she informed myself and the other officers that her husband was armed.
The second incident involved a drug deal in which myself and another officer were working under cover. In that case I feel I did the world a favor by ridding it of a parasite. (Shades of the second, least commonly felt, reaction observed by Bestdefense in his research.)
I do know of one incident that would reflect the pyschological consequences experienced by someone after being forced to take anothers life. At the Kansas City regional police training academy we had an officer with a law degree who choice to become a police officer instead of pursuing a law practice. He was my law profssor in the academy and a good teacher for what is, for the most part, a rather dry subject. Shortly after my class graduated he was promoted. The promotion process with the department requires officers to work on the street for a year before being reassigned to something more suitable.....in this case back to the academy.
Soon after going back on the street Sergeant Smith (as we'll call him) was dispatched to a commercial burglarly in progress. He "jumped" the call and arrived prior to his back up where he discovered the perpitrator exiting a window with a televison set. When he instructed the perp to set down the t.v. and show his hands the perp instead drew a gun and advanced on Smith. In spite of his shouted instructions the perp continued toward him until the only thing serperating them was a utility pole. The perp then began shooting at Smith. They chased one another around the poll, with Smith not firing a shot, until the perp exhausted his ammo supply. Smith then, in complete panic, emptied his issued S&W model 64 into the perp. The perp expired at the scene.
With all police involved shootings there are, obviously, several notifications that must be made. Internal Affairs and the Homicide Unit are two. It is customary for the Homicide Untit to take the officer to their office and interogate him first. When asked by the HU investigators why he had fired six shots Smith, who was still in a daze, answered because he did not have time to reload. The answer was not made in jest. When the adrenalin kicked in and Smiths own survival instincts took hold he had emptied his revolver.
It was determined that Smith was in no psychological condition to respond to questions from Internal Affairs. (This was not done as a cover up as some may suspect at this point. It was a "good shot" and in his mental state Smith had no way of knowing the perp's gun was empty.) The department psychologist was called in and cofirmed that Smith was in deed in no condition to answer further questions.....from anyone.
After weeks of therapy Smith was returned to the academy. But his mental state would not allow him to teach. He was eventually given full disability retirement.
A little less than five years later he took his own life. He had never discussed the incident out side of the department psychologist office with anyone, including his friends, fellow officers or wife and family.


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Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
 
Andrew,
How many digits do you have on both your hands...and even some on your feet?

Dangus,
Here in soCal we have a lot of revenge attempts, both from their culture...mostly Hispanic, and in the gang culture, which is sometimes synonymous.

Even when you were doing your job and some of their gang "family" got busted, they try to get revenge.

Example, I worked in a city many years back where I worked in the parks trying to provide eyes for security by calling the cops. The deal was that I dressed in park recreation garb and I didn't pack a piece.

I saw what looked like a drug deal going down and I watched long enough to see where they hid the samples...they simply dug a small hole in the grass in the picnic area. I dialed a direct line to the desk sergeant.
Inside of 10 minutes, the cavalry arrived and rounded up all the bad guys (2 gangs).
The only trouble is one of the newbies as they drove by the equipment room, said nice and loud, "Thanks for the call." There happened to be one of the leaders in that car's backseat.
I went to my bosses, they would not let me back on the parks with my shotgun and handgun. I resigned right then.
They asked me to stay that night because it was too late to get a replacement. I sat on the swings in a dark area with my pistol and a dark jacket...the equipment room/office was well lit.
I saw a suspicious low rider parked in the far dark corner of one of the parking lots. I called it in. The cavalry arrived and caught a young male with a scoped rifle.
A week later, they caught a car load of young males driving on the park with some Molatov cocktails and two hand guns in the car...of,course, they had no idea how those things got there or even why they were in the park.
A week after that, I went to that park to warn one of the recreation people because he "looked" like me...I ran into three male Hispanics looking for "him/me" and had my description. They faked it like it was going to be a stand up one on one fight with no interference....I wasn't packing a gun.
The cops tracked them because they went to the local hospital to get "fixed up"...and they had to register to get repaired. Only trouble is that I didn't have any witnesses. The BG's tried to knife me and overpower me from behind while I focused on the opponent in front of me.
The desk sergeant let me know that two of the three BG's had just been out of prison a week or so before the attack. Gang setup?
I figure...these three bozo's didn't know me from Adam...and they belong to one of the gang's that got busted?
Revenge? I hope to holler.

As an aside, the friend that I warned? He couldn't quit because he was an Olympic hopeful in swimming. He swam in the city's Olympic sized pool to train and he worked recreation to help pay back the city. A year later two wannabees who was trying to get into the gang? They set him up by making believe that one person was injured in a baseball game. When my friend brought them to the office? They stabbed and cut him. He lost one eye where they stabbed him in the eye. He loss 60% use of his left arm where they cut through the biceps, then the triceps. His dream of making the Olympics died with that attack. He had always gotten close in the swimming trial, this was to be his last time to try...
Sorry, I got side tracked...yes I know some LEO's,some ex-gang dudes, and some regular folks who have been in shootings.

The hardest problem is dealing with the aftermath of shooting someone. There's a lot of emotion, etc...but that's another story.

Stay safe.
 
I know a fair amount of people, mostly LEOs who've had to kill bad guys. I know of only one who has had a great problem dealing with one of his two shootings. This was in a situation in which he killed an innocent man, although because of the situation, it was found perfectly justified by both his dept., and by the D.A. It was just a very tragic situation. He had major problems with it, although about four years earlier, he'd had to kill a roober in a warehouse robbery, in which the robber actually fired a 12 ga at him. He told me it didn't bother him a bit to kill that robber SOB.

Another good friend of mine, in an off duty incident, had to kill a bad guy, and he felt no remorse whatever.

I know another LEO who had to kill a psycho who had just decapitated another cop. The psycho was then trying to kill the LEO. The LEO wasn't sorry a second.

I know a woman, civilian, who had to kill a man who had broken into her home and was attacking her. She was extremely angry at the suspect, but was not sorry a moment for killing him.

I know two other civilains who had to shoot for their lives, and they aren't a bit sorry, as they were pushed into it by the crimnal's actions.

My experience, kinda opposite Robert's is that the people I know, who've had to kill in defense of their lives or the lives of innocent people, are not suffering trauma from it. Only the man of whom i wrote above, who shot the innocent civilian.

Anecdotal, of course, but that's what those people told me. All these were southern Kalif. incidents.

BTW, LASUR5R, I know exactly what you're talking aobut with those little sh!thead gangstas.

FWIW. J.B.
 
Several LEOs. One of whom I spoke with today.

About a year go, he explained he used to be a LEO in a large Texas city. On two different occasions, he was shot by BGs.

First time he was shot in the chest. His vest saved him and he killed the perp.

Second time he took two rounds to the head from a small caliber handgun. (Both shots were superficial and did not penetrate the skull.) He killed the perp.

He then resigned.
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The other LEO is a high-ranking cop in a major Texas city. He was shot several times with a .357 Magnum. IIRC, he suffered wounds to his shoulder, arms, and hand. He survived and (from a third party source), I heard he killed the perp who shot him.
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Third LEO is a Deputy Sheriff in Texas. During a car chase, someone in the perp's car shot a (?.223?) semi-auto rifle at the Deputy. Several shots hit the windshield, which splattered glass fragments into his face - cutting his face superficially but many times. Other shots disabled his patrol car and he lost the guy(s).

Some time later, the shooter was apprehended in northern Texas. Our local Sheriff sent the Deputy who was wounded (but now healed) to bring back the perp who was the shooter.
 
I wouldn't discount military actions - I know too many veterans who still have nightmares.

As far as civilians go, there's a few:

- A regular customer at a store I used to work at murdered his girlfriend's husband (hung himself in jail)

- My mechanic, who always seemed to be a nice guy, murdered a woman in Atlanta for $8

- A LEO friend was shot a few months ago - very minor wound, he only missed 3-4 days of work.

- One fellow that lives in my home town holds the Atlanta record for on-duty kills with 28 (I think). He got all the psychos they never thought they'd take alive.

- I know someone who accidentally shot himself in the back (no, I'm not kidding)

- A guy I went to high school with got shot by somebody trying to steal his class ring
 
I know five of our troops that were involved in five separate shootings and another 6 involved in the same shooting in which i was present, but did not fire.
 
Danger Dave...

Please stay on your side of Atlanta. Thank you.


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God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!

oberkommando sez:
"We lost the first and third and now they are after the Second!(no pun intended)"
 
KaMaKaZe,
Hate to break it to you, but I'm downtown right now!

Funny thing - every one of those incidents involved someone that lives or lived in Douglas County...



[This message has been edited by Danger Dave (edited September 05, 2000).]
 
Damiano,

Where in Guatemala did this take place? I've spent time in Latin America, Guatemala was one of the countries I visited.

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"Get yourself a Lorcin and lose that nickel plated sissy pistol."

[This message has been edited by Tecolote (edited September 05, 2000).]
 
I used to shoot IPSC with the guy that killed the first person ever shot with a 10MM and died. It happened in Renton, WA around 1988 or 1989. My friend shot the guy after he tried to hold up a gun shop and shot at a Renton Cop (who's gun then jammed). Danny shot the guy four times, all in the "A" zone; three bullets exited, causing the local rag to announce that the bad guy had been shot 7 times.

Danny avoided civil action, I believe, due to the citation the Renton police chief gave him for saving the cop's life and the police talking, privately with the family.

The "bad guy" was not mentally developed and had never had any trouble with the law before this. The family was never, to my knowledge, able to discover what caused him to try to rob a gun shop.

Danny was back again shooting IPSC a couple of weeks after the shooting with no apparent ill effects.

Albin
 
"- One fellow that lives in my home town holds the Atlanta record for on-duty kills with 28 (I think). He got all the psychos they never thought they'd take alive."

Sounds like someone likes to kill people! Shoudnt he behind a desk?

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Dead [Black Ops]
 
I would like to see a category for stories relating to actual situations where bodily harm was avoided, or not avoided through actions of the armed ( fist, knife, bat , gun, tank ) citizen (& LEO). I would assume that most stories would come from published accounts. Many folks have guns for personal protection, but have no idea the many ways that situations come down. I recognize that these stories can be presently posted, but a separate compendium would be instructional. This would be more of a resource. Are there any URL's where these stories are available?
 
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