I'm giving myself the fits trying to get 17hmr to group constantly. Seems that when shooting 5 shot groups there's at least one flier. I have 2 Savage B17 rifles one heavy barrel, one sporter. My son, girlfriend and her daughter have different heavy barrel versions of the Savage 93r17. Generally theirs print a little better than my B17s. The 93r17s get about 1/2" groups @ 50 yards and the B17s about 3/4". That's not including the fliers. Fliers are often half inch to an inch away from the group. We've tried every non-winchester boxing of vmax and hollowpoints available and just when we get a good group and think we're onto something, we're back to where we started. I love the caliber but it's driving me crazy trying to get any consistency out it. Bottom line is I'm wondering if this is normal for the caliber or is there something I need to do differently?
Do you get fliers with your 17hmr?
- Thread starter rms65
- Start date
NoSecondBest
New member
Rimfire ammo is the most fickle ammo in the world. It varies from lot to lot and every gun will have a preferred bullet it shoots best. I have a 17HMR (CZ) and with some brands/batches of ammo it will shoot groups as small as .437" at 75 yards (five shots). Other ammo is well over an inch. You need to get a variety of different brands and weights to try in your gun. My gun will not shoot any 20g bullet well and prefers 17g bullets. When I found the best shooting bullet/brand I went back to the LGS and bought up the remaining stock in that lot number....it all shoots good now. FWIW, the groups you're describing are typical (in the real world, not the keyboard world) of how most of these guns shoot. You can help by trying what I suggested. Good luck.
How old is your ammo?
I've been noticing some occasional hangfires in some 8-10 year old Hornady 17HMR ammo. In some cases, it's hardly noticeable and others a definite snap---bang. I also see an occasional out of the group low hit as if there wasn't full ignition.
Same lot ammo that was producing cloverleafs in 2010, is now consistently 1" groups and I don't think it's all just the shooter getting older.
I've been noticing some occasional hangfires in some 8-10 year old Hornady 17HMR ammo. In some cases, it's hardly noticeable and others a definite snap---bang. I also see an occasional out of the group low hit as if there wasn't full ignition.
Same lot ammo that was producing cloverleafs in 2010, is now consistently 1" groups and I don't think it's all just the shooter getting older.
Thanks. I read stuff on the internet and I feel like a failure. I've had a couple issues with 17hmr but overall I like the caliber. Savage just replaced my first B17F because it always threw the first shot 2+ MOA low and usually a little left. Then it would group around 1.5 MOA sans the flyers. I was shooting the replacement rifle today and I'm still getting fliers. Shipped back my Savage B17FVSS yesterday because the cocking pin was deforming, it would misfire and the accuracy is erratic. It tends to shoot split groups and I've checked the scope and mounts etc etc. I'm considering buying a better quality gun but if the cartridge is at fault, what's the sense?
NoSecondBest
New member
I've owned a lot of rimfire rifles in my life, and many were from Savage. Most shot well, but the fit and finish on these guns really, really pales in comparison to the CZ rifles. Savage cuts corners that save them pennies and are at the expense of the function of the gun. Just look at their .22lr bolt guns: no feed ramp into the chamber. This causes a lot of problems. Some of their rifling looks like it was cut with a chisel and hammer. Amazing that they shoot as good as they do. Some of the most accurate out of the box centerfire rifles I've ever owned were made by Savage. However, I personally believe their rimfires are really bargain basement products anymore. I picked up my first CZ three years ago and I can't believe the difference in quality, accuracy, and function between the two brands of rifles. The best part of the CZ's is that they aren't that expensive. IIRC, my CZ 455 American was under four hundred bucks when I got it new. I now have three barrels for it and all three shoot lights out accurate. If you find that you can afford to try a CZ, I think you'd be pretty happy with one. If you want to really learn more about rimfires and how to get them to shoot, visit rimfirecentral.com I think they're up to around 30,000 members right now. Good luck with your gun and don't get too discouraged.
Thanks I'll look into the CZs. I originally dismissed them because of the high bolt lift and subsequent clunky scope mounting choices. CZs definitely have a cult like following, so there has to be something to it. Tikka has a 17hmr in the works but there's not enough information on it yet for me to order one.
I think NoSecondBest has the right answer. Somewhere out on the web (maybe Youtube) is a video showing how rimfire ammo is created. The priming process is totally manual and depends greatly on the skill of the operator. The operators with the greatest skill produce the most consistent primers (consistency being a key contributor towards accuracy). Those operators would then get assigned to the lines producing that manufacturer's "match grade" ammo while the less skilled operators get assigned to lines producing ordinary ammo.
FrankenMauser
New member
My thoughts:
It's rimfire, in cheap rifles. Be happy that the average is generally quite decent, while knowing that even the flyers aren't all that bad.
---
I have a few rifles in the safe that irritate the crap out of me because of the one 'flyer' in every group.
I usually blame myself. I am, after all, the weakest link. The rifles are good. The ammo is good. The conditions are good. But the monkey behind the trigger...
However, I've shot those rifles enough to find that it probably isn't me.
The most irritating, to me, are my custom Marlin 444 and a 6x45mm AR upper.
I built both. (And, in this case, I feel that "built" is applicable even to the AR upper, since I had to do hand-fitting that ARs typically don't require, and I had to finish chamber the barrel myself. Anyway...)
Both of those rifles will stack their favorite loads in the same hole. It's beautiful.
...Except the 444 throws a cold bore shot 1" high, and the last shot 1/2" low, at 100 yards. And the 6x45mm always throws the 4th or 5th shot 1/4" to 1/2" to the right. (Yea, we're talking about 'flyers' that really aren't bad. But when the rest of the group is ONE HOLE, it irritates me.)
I could eliminate cold bore shots and the last round from 444 testing, and, theoretically, have perfect groups; but I feel like that would be cheating.
With both rifles, I've done testing to see if I was changing cheek weld, trigger pull, sight picture, hand pressure, grip style, posture, eye relief / scope picture, number of rounds in the magazine, and more. The groups remained the same.
Some rifles just like to be irritants.
To eliminate some of the irritation with the 444, I yanked the scope and dialed in some iron sights. It still shoots quite well. But I am no longer stacking the bullets in the same hole, so the flyers get lost in the 'noise'...
It's rimfire, in cheap rifles. Be happy that the average is generally quite decent, while knowing that even the flyers aren't all that bad.
---
I have a few rifles in the safe that irritate the crap out of me because of the one 'flyer' in every group.
I usually blame myself. I am, after all, the weakest link. The rifles are good. The ammo is good. The conditions are good. But the monkey behind the trigger...
However, I've shot those rifles enough to find that it probably isn't me.
The most irritating, to me, are my custom Marlin 444 and a 6x45mm AR upper.
I built both. (And, in this case, I feel that "built" is applicable even to the AR upper, since I had to do hand-fitting that ARs typically don't require, and I had to finish chamber the barrel myself. Anyway...)
Both of those rifles will stack their favorite loads in the same hole. It's beautiful.
...Except the 444 throws a cold bore shot 1" high, and the last shot 1/2" low, at 100 yards. And the 6x45mm always throws the 4th or 5th shot 1/4" to 1/2" to the right. (Yea, we're talking about 'flyers' that really aren't bad. But when the rest of the group is ONE HOLE, it irritates me.)
I could eliminate cold bore shots and the last round from 444 testing, and, theoretically, have perfect groups; but I feel like that would be cheating.
With both rifles, I've done testing to see if I was changing cheek weld, trigger pull, sight picture, hand pressure, grip style, posture, eye relief / scope picture, number of rounds in the magazine, and more. The groups remained the same.
Some rifles just like to be irritants.
To eliminate some of the irritation with the 444, I yanked the scope and dialed in some iron sights. It still shoots quite well. But I am no longer stacking the bullets in the same hole, so the flyers get lost in the 'noise'...
FrankenMauser
New member
There's nothing left in the magazine.
FrankenMauser
New member
I hadn't realized that I was supposed to be attempting to establish such when sharing anecdotal information. Can you point me toward the information desk, so I can pick up a pamphlet on establishing credibility while discussing flyers?
Nor do I see how a rifle being empty is not relevant to the rifle 'knowing' it's firing the last shot.
Dynamics change. The loaded or empty state of a magazine - particularly with tubular magazine rifles - can have a notable impact on performance.
Nor do I see how a rifle being empty is not relevant to the rifle 'knowing' it's firing the last shot.
Dynamics change. The loaded or empty state of a magazine - particularly with tubular magazine rifles - can have a notable impact on performance.
Being a benchrest kind of guy, I'm careful about shooting groups and testing ammo. So far, Remington .17 HMR of one lot number shoots best in my new CZ barrel. It's shot a sub-1/2" for 4 shots at 100 yards, with a 5th shot flyer making the group 1".
Other groups with CCI and other ammos have grouped about 1 1/2" at that distance. The worst was still better than most .22 WMR groups with the other barrel. Two other batches of Remington ammo haven't been as good as the first, but still group a bit better than 1 1/2".
Apart from cleaning and breaking-in the barrel, I hope a varmint finds its way into my crosshairs soon, so I can examine the efficiency of the cartridge on critters.
Until I can prove otherwise, I think of the cartridge as a 150 yard max killer. It's shooting flat enough to consider no hold-over or under out to 130 yards or so, being sighted-in 3/4" high at 100...it's within 1" of the crosshairs between 25 and 130 yards.
Other groups with CCI and other ammos have grouped about 1 1/2" at that distance. The worst was still better than most .22 WMR groups with the other barrel. Two other batches of Remington ammo haven't been as good as the first, but still group a bit better than 1 1/2".
Apart from cleaning and breaking-in the barrel, I hope a varmint finds its way into my crosshairs soon, so I can examine the efficiency of the cartridge on critters.
Until I can prove otherwise, I think of the cartridge as a 150 yard max killer. It's shooting flat enough to consider no hold-over or under out to 130 yards or so, being sighted-in 3/4" high at 100...it's within 1" of the crosshairs between 25 and 130 yards.
have you checked the crown??
have you considered bedding the action??
have you tried different torque setting on the action screws??
the reason i ask is,, i have a 17wsm,,,and it would do what you are saying,,,my crown needed touched up,,,i did that,,,and i bedded the action and about an inch of the barrel,,,and the action screws responded nicely at 15 inch pounds,,,,not sure about the 17HMR but for me with the 17WSM,, i only have one ammo maker,,,yes there is different labels BUT Winchester makes it all
i have this rifle lined up at 80 yrds,,,it is making on a good day 1/2-5/8 size groups......i can tell you with the 20gr bullet,, it is min. of crow at a ranged 157
also one of the guys over on RFC likes to use one of those rubber barrel dampener things u slide on the barrel to change harmonics,,,he says it works,,,i cant speak to that,,,never tried one
just some rimfire thoughts
ocharry
have you considered bedding the action??
have you tried different torque setting on the action screws??
the reason i ask is,, i have a 17wsm,,,and it would do what you are saying,,,my crown needed touched up,,,i did that,,,and i bedded the action and about an inch of the barrel,,,and the action screws responded nicely at 15 inch pounds,,,,not sure about the 17HMR but for me with the 17WSM,, i only have one ammo maker,,,yes there is different labels BUT Winchester makes it all
i have this rifle lined up at 80 yrds,,,it is making on a good day 1/2-5/8 size groups......i can tell you with the 20gr bullet,, it is min. of crow at a ranged 157
also one of the guys over on RFC likes to use one of those rubber barrel dampener things u slide on the barrel to change harmonics,,,he says it works,,,i cant speak to that,,,never tried one
just some rimfire thoughts
ocharry
FrankenMauser
New member
Are you going to address any of the points presented in the thread, and or contribute in any way?
Or are you just here to be a troll this week?
"...Rimfire ammo is the most fickle ammo in the world..." And that's putting it politely. It has nothing to do with the mag capacity or how many you load though. It's just the way rimfire ammo is.
Except for target ammo. That no .17 HMR is or ever will be. Target ammo is loaded with far more QC than hunting ammo.
Mind you, Savage B17/93r17's aren't target rifles either.
Except for target ammo. That no .17 HMR is or ever will be. Target ammo is loaded with far more QC than hunting ammo.
Mind you, Savage B17/93r17's aren't target rifles either.