Do I really need a .357/44spl.

P

PigPen

New member
I am a 1911 man basically but I have a few revolvers. One is a 649-2 38 spl. I like at certain times when I want to carry a pocket piece. I have been thinking of increasing my firepower but want to remain light...if I didn't mind the weight, I'd carry my Kahr 40 or a 1911.

Lately I have found myself thinking of the J frame, 649, 2 1/8" in .357. If on the other hand, I decide against the .357, then maybe I should exchange the 649 38 spl. for the 638 in 38 spl. (even lighter).

I have read through the archives here and all that did was make me want about 6 more revolvers :).

Here are the basic questions:

a. Am I well armed with the 649 in 38 spl. using Federal 110 gr. Hydra Shocks?

b. If not well armed, should I change ammunition or calibers.

c. If a caliber change is advised, should it be 44 spl. or 357 mag. Or something else given that I want a small lightweight piece for pocket carry.

I do not enjoy shooting this pistol at the range, preferring a 1911 or larger frame revolver so I would not be shooting it much. Therefore recoil, within reason, is not much of a factor. I believe in the rush of adrenaline when having to shoot a person, I wouldn't notice the recoil of an artillery piece.


PigPen
 
Sumpin to think about.

If you dont enjoy shootin it, you probably won't shoot it much.
If you shoot it only a little, probably won't get very good with it.

Your life.

Not that hard to adjust your dress and get used to a full sized gun.

Weight ?
What about the lady that packs a kid for a couple of years, in utero and post utero. Along with heavy purse n other stuff ??

I like the .357, .45ACP and .44; but I usually carry em in full size guns.

Sam
 
The thing about .357 is that it was designed to be a high-speed cartridge. I might be in the minority on this, but my feeling is that to get the desired results from the .357, especially if firing hollowpoint rounds, use a 4" bbl. Some people like the 3.5" bbl, which is just as fine.

With a shorter bbl, I just don't think you can get the bullet going fast enough to justify the extra recoil, compared to .38 Special. In fact, I've owned an SP101 .357 2.5" for almost a decade. On a bet from a friend, I fired several rounds of .357 and .38 hollowpoints into wet newspaper. I was surprised to find that the .357 bullets did not expand. At that point, I decided to stock that revolver with .38 only. Not a "scientific" procedure, but startling enough for me to change my thinking. As a counterpoint, I did not test semi-wadcutter cartridges. I assume that .357 SWC would penetrate deeper than similar .38 SWC.

On the other hand, with a big revolver, like an N-frame Smith, or a GP100, with a decent sized barrel, it is easy to keep the gun running and the hits coming. The .357 round was designed around the big revolver. Quite simply, follow up shots with my M28 are a breeze, but with my SP101, they can be "gnarly". YMMV!

Regards,
--
Brian
 
357 vs 44 spl.

I think that the 357 here wins this competition hands down. While 44 spl. is a fine caliber the .357 gives the shooter so many different shooting options e.g. 38 spl, 38+P, 357.

As to the lightness of a carry gun I share PigPen's goal of increased firepower without increased weight. Not too long ago I purchased a S & W 386 which is a 3" bbl., 7 shot, TiScan in 357. Unloaded it weighs 18oz so it is pretty darn light and is a dream for concealed carry. There has been a lot written about the titanium revolvers in .357 and the kind of recoil that goes with them. While the recoil of the 386 shooting 357 ammo is stiff it is not at all unmanageable. With either 38 spl. or +P ammo recoil is, for me, absolutely no problem at all. So FWIW the 386 answered a lot of my concerns and has worked out well for me. It is a gun that I recommend highly. Good shooting:)
 
I had been carring a S&W mod 60 J frame with3" barrelin 38 spec. When I saw Tamara's pc13 and after I had gotten a S&W 65 4" sq butt I knew I had to get a S&W 13, 3" round butt. I have carried it every where and the weight is not a problem. mostly IBW mexican and some times in my front pocket. It is a great shooter and handles 357 handloads very well. 125gr Hornady xtp pushed by 16.5 gr 2400 what a fire ball and flash, but it recoils almost straight back, with very little muzzle rise.

now I just need to find a nice 586, 6"
 
Id have to have been at your newspaper test to see what happened...just out of curiousity. The 38+P and 357 from the SP 101's 2 1/4" barrel should have expanded. Chrono results from these guns typically have the 357 in the 1150-1200+ FPS velocity range, which should be plenty to expand...125gr's with a good bullet design should have no problem.
The 44 spec is limited by available loads and you can get good defensive rounds for them...Corbons are the hottest I believe.
For me..Ill take the 357 from a snub....400+FPE with the 125 gr's are alot packed into a little gun.
Shoot well
 
The question begs-can YOU hit with it? If so, the old saw of carrying the most powerful weapon/caliber you can manage well is still the best path.
 
I was surprised at the results of my test, to say the least. These were 125 g. hollowpoints tested, from a variety of makers: Federal Nyclad and Classic, Remington Golden Saber, and Winchester white box.

Bottom line was that we found no significant difference in expansion of the .357 rounds compared to .38 rounds. The .357 rounds did penetrate deeper into the wet newspaper. My conclusion was that a) I would stay with .357 in SWC loadings or b) I would use .38 158 SWCHP. Note that this is in my snubbie SP101 only, and that performance from any other SP is likely different.

Also, I understand that the runaway commercial success of small lightweight .357 revo's shows that most people feel differently.

I would be interested in performance comparison of .44 sp/mag out of snubbies vs. out of full bbled revo's.
 
I really like shooting the 1911, but I finally shot a GP100 .357 about 6 months ago and it's a load of fun. Something about a heavy wheelgun makes me shoot better than normal -- even in DA!
 
Newspaper should be bundled and soaked overnight for fair expansion check.

Otherwise, not enough water to cause hydraulic expansion. Remember, flesh is mostly water.

Sam
 
You are already well armed with a J-frame .38, though I would carry a different load than the ineffectual 110 grainer...something more on the idea of a heavy wadcutter/semi-wadcutter hardcast for better penetration. I don't think you can get a better small carry gun than that. With the proper loads recoil and muzzle blast is fierce, but you don't shoot guns like this for fun.
The .357 needs a long runway to get airbourne. The .44 is more than you need for close-up personal defense, though it's easy to postulate situations when it would be welcome: against large dangerous animals for instance.
Of course, the very BEST personal defense handgun is the 1911.
 
PigPen,

Be sure to rent a snub .357 before you make up your mind. You may change your mind. While you may not practice often with it you really do need to practice with your defensive load and you may not want to with a small .357. If you didn't have the .38 fine, if you don't like shooting .357s you can always use .38s or +Ps (which will work just fine) but you already have a .38 snub. You may want to consider a 2 1/2" or 3" K-frame if you want a small, carryable .357 (my 3" S&W 65LS is quite comfortable).
now I just need to find a nice 586, 6"
Click to expand...
Perfessr,

Check out this. I absolutely love this new toy. Very accurate gun, beautiful bluing, fun to shoot, comfortable to shoot, etc. I may even like it more than I like my CZ 75B.
 
Chaim I have my eye on a 586 at a local establishment near me, his asking price is $349. Now if I could only sell my S&W mod 66 4"


That shop also has a
Mod 37-1
Mod 36
Mod 19-2 P&R
 
I've found the difference in FPS between my wifes 4" (albeit ported) taurus tracker and my 2" windicator runs around 50fps with fast burning powder (therein is the key I think).

I haven't done any serious chrono testing with factory ammo, but I wouldn't expect to see much more difference.
 
originally posted by Slabsides:

"You are already well armed with a J-frame .38, though I would carry a different load than the ineffectual 110 grainer...something more on the idea of a heavy wadcutter/semi-wadcutter hardcast for better penetration. I don't think"
Click to expand...

Slabsides, are we talking strictly handloads here? Homegrown?

PigPen
 
PP: Guess my assumption was hanging out! I WAS thinking in termsof handloads. Seems reasonable to me that anyone who's at all serious about getting the most from his firearms would be into reloading. I should tell you that I don't subscribe to the 'open up and dump all the energy inside' school of thought. I believe that a bullet should hit a vital spot and go all the way through the target, even if it's behind light cover. Light bullets just won't do that. A bullet that opens beautifully but stops in the perp's underwear is no good. Momentum is the key, here.
Specifically, for the old 2" Model 60 .38 spcl. which is my snubby carry piece, I like a 160 gr. hardcast swc ( like the Lyman mold #358429...currently I use Bull-X's) with enough go-dust to boost velocity into the low to mid 9's, which is about the most you can safely get from a snub with a heavy bullet (see your reloading manual.) I don't shoot a lot of these, just periodic checks. In a snubby, it's hard to get any deforming bullet to open up...so a penetrating solid is just a better choice. (BTW, a load like this shot right through a medium-sized bear a few years ago and left inch-wide holes through bones and vitals. Its .24" dia. nose meplat is a real chopper.) Use such loads only in all-steel guns of full weight and you'd be ok. In the newer Titanium/Scandium/Unobtainium guns, you're on your own, though. Cooper once said that the old Model 60 could handle loads up to '...low end .357 levels', and I believe it to be true and have practiced it in loads for my own use in many guns for over 30 years.
For those who don't reload, I hear good things about the Federal 158 gr. plus P load, although I seem to remember reading somewhere that it's recently been discontinued?
For unplanned, close-in interpersonal crisis management, a stout .38 special will do quite well, horror stories to the contrary notwithstanding. Of course there are bigger and more powerful guns that will do better in more extreme situations...and if such are anticipated, it is wisdom to leave the pipsqueek at home, and resign yourself to hauling the howitzer along.
 
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