Disarm Hate

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BarryLee

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There is a growing movement to somehow associate gun rights with hatred of the LGBTQ Community. The leader of the new group Justin Hayes stated, “The NRA is in trouble. They kicked the glitter hornet’s nest, baby”. While I’m not sure exactly what imagined wrong the NRA is guilty of it appears Mr. Hayes motivation is real. He is coordinating with the Brady Campaign and the Everytown movement for a march on Washington and associated rallies around the country on August 13. Along with traditional gun control groups they are also soliciting the support of traditional LGBTQ rights groups. The group has four main goals as stated by Mr. Hayes, “Equal human rights for the LGBTQ community, an assault rifle ban, a national registry of gun owners and a mandatory fourteen-to-thirty day waiting period between purchasing and receiving a gun”.

There are a number of things wrong with the statements associating gun rights with haltered. Also, I fail to see how any of their goals would have any real impact on violence committed by terrorist, criminals and the mental ill. However, with social media and the 140 character message no one seems to need much real information to get behind an issue. Also, the strategy of accusing your opponent of hatred has worked well in the past.

So, what do you think? Is this just one group within the greater LGBTQ community or is this community so united that many will feel duty bound to support this issue regardless of their personal feelings.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-f-brand/after-the-massacre-in-orl_b_10760198.html

http://store.everytown.org/
 
The modern narrative,
Gun owners are a group that has been stereotypically aligned with everything the progressive movement is against. We have arisen to the level of domestic terrorists and some of the most renowned hate groups.
Gun owners now must hide in the shadows.
 
Special interest groups that are anti-gun is just icing on the rotten cake made out of the government, education, media and entertainment establishments that are generally anti-gun.
 
Well, one of the problems with promoting gun control is there is no grass roots anti-gun group. The groups that do exist are essentially a dozen (or less) professional lobbyists and PR types who are being funded through Bloomberg or the Joyce Foundation and they'll shrivel up and die as soon as that funding stops.

One thing all the antis complain about is they have no equivalent to the NRA. So my guess is they are hoping to take the identity politics approach used by Obama and try and create their own anti-NRA.

There are two big problems with that though. One is that while Obama's approach has worked at the national level for him personally, it has slaughtered the Democratic party at the state and legislative levels. So even if it worked, it is unlikely to produce progress on gun control as the current administration is already all-in on gun control using all the power they've acquired via identity politics.

The second big problem is while old, straight, white guys do tend to be fond of guns, and may even be a majority of the "fond of guns" demographic - they are by far not the only people who like gun. Immigrants, women, every ethnicity in America and openly gay people - I've met every category of people while shooting in my "deep red" suburban county in a deep red state. So I'm guessing that this trend may be even more pronounced elsewhere. I think using identity politics like that is likely to backfire on them.
 
I think using identity politics like that is likely to backfire on them.
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Yes, you could be correct. I also realize that there is not a stereotypical LGBTQ person and that these individuals hold a variety of interest and philosophical positions. However, I hope we don’t underestimate the power of social media and that of a well organized group.
 
Based on what I've seen, the rank and file isn't buying the anti's message anymore anyway.
The really rabid ones that actually care about it are an extremely vocal minority, but these days, they are the minority, even among liberals.
 
Nothing can really happen at the federal level only serves to get people stirred up, but it's happening at a maddening pace at local and state levels.

But now that we are gonna get a rabidly antigun president and probably an antigun SCOTUS, I'd say we are in for changes.

Also never underestimate the effect of being in a socially unacceptable group, which gun owners now are.
 
There is a growing movement to somehow associate gun rights with hatred of the LGBTQ Community.
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Did anyone say this - gun rights were and are seen by some as an indicator of conservative and political beliefs. Such folks have not been friendly to gays or gay rights issues. That past cannot be avoided. Hopefully that is changing and the gun rights movement becomes inclusive.

The ability of some folks to demand the right to have an instrument of lethal force and then on the other hand want to be the bedroom/crotch police has always puzzled me from a perspective of respecting individual rights to lead your own life and protect it.

Similarly the ability of folks to demand the right to lead their own sexual lives but deny folks the ability to protect themselves also puzzles me.

We don't need the government in our holsters or in our pants.
 
When the country was founded only white male land owners could vote. Over the decades the right to vote was extended to include more and more people. All white males. Males of any race. Women.

Then in the 60s segregation was outlawed. People of all races had equal access to public facilities. Over the last couple of decades discrimination has been outlawed against homosexuals and transgender people. Regardless of race, religion or sexual orientation, everyone was included and we now live in an unprecedented era of inclusion and tolerance.

Unless you own a gun.

Then you are subjected to scorn and derision. After decades of fighting to keep banks from redlining (marking neighborhoods as a No Loan Zone) black neighborhoods, a black President of the United States tried to force banks to redline gun shops (Operation Choke Point). Your ability to exercise a right specifically and directly recognized in the Bill of Rights can be revoked for a misdemeanor conviction. Worse, it can be revoked for an ex post facto misdemeanor conviction. And the President of the United States says publicly that it's "insane" that the government can't revoke an explicit constitutional right based on a secret list without a shred of due process, declaring the gun buyer guilty until proven innocent.

Elaborate schemes, reminiscent of the old Jim Crow laws, are constructed to theoretically allow guns to be owned, but in practice make it impossible to actually do it. (see Washington D.C.). Anti gun states misuse emergency procedures to pass laws designed to make gun ownership as difficult, awkward and expensive as possible (see NY and CA).

While the historical trend has been to offer full rights and protection to a wider and wider section of people, for the first time in US history a formerly accepted group is being pushed out.

So are we really eliminating bigotry and discrimination from our society or are we merely changing the targets based on the whims of social fashion?
 
Glenn E. Meyer said:
We don't need the government in our holsters or in our pants.
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Glenn, if I attribute this to you, may I use it as my sig line? :D

natman said:
While the historical trend has been to offer full rights and protection to a wider and wider section of people, for the first time in US history a formerly accepted group is being pushed out.

So are we really eliminating bigotry and discrimination from our society or are we merely changing the targets based on the whims of social fashion?
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The difficulty with this line of argument is that the choice to own guns is just that -- a choice. This differentiates gun owners from groups that are, or should be, protected classes. (Religious affiliation may be an exception to this, although even there one can argue that most people are raised in the religion they follow, which limits the element of choice.)
 
Humans are naturally bigoted. If you think about it, there is some group that any individual has misgivings against. Race, religion, marital status, sexual orientation, favorite sport, drive a Prius, don't clean your AR daily... Name it. When they make it immoral for society to hate one group, everyone just moves on to another group to hate. If they can't find a valid reason, they merely accuse the other group of being racist, homophobic, misogynistic, islamaphobe or whatever.
Now, merely supporting a legitimate presidential candidate will get you shamed.


So are we really eliminating bigotry and discrimination from our society or are we merely changing the targets based on the whims of social fashion?
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The difficulty with this line of argument is that the choice to own guns is just that -- a choice. This differentiates gun owners from groups that are, or should be, protected classes. (Religious affiliation may be an exception to this, although even there one can argue that most people are raised in the religion they follow, which limits the element of choice.)
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I appreciate the distinction between groups formed by choice vs. no choice, but I don't see how it justifies bigotry and discrimination.
 
natman said:
I appreciate the distinction between groups formed by choice vs. no choice, but I don't see how it justifies bigotry and discrimination.
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It doesn't justify either. My only point is that civil rights laws, the ones that, to use your words, "offer full rights and protection to a wider and wider section of people," haven't historically done so for people who belong to groups they've chosen to join, and that is very unlikely to change.
 
Evan - use it with joy.

Andy - that is a relatively new turn in the public discussion due to a change in societal attitudes and the horror of Orlando.

It should be encouraged. One has to know history and not ignore it.
 
Mr Hayes, and those like him, need to be called out for his stereotyping of groups into nothing more than blocks with no distinction for the individuals within those blocks. For a group that fought so long and hard to have their uniqueness recognized and protected to suddenly be lumped together on an issue that has nothing to do with that is distasteful at very best.

Equal human rights for the LGBTQ community, an assault rifle ban, a national registry of gun owners and a mandatory fourteen-to-thirty day waiting period between purchasing and receiving a gun”.
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I cannot for the life of me figure out what item 1 has to do with the rest of the list. Is Mr Hayes implying that those who are part of the LGBTQ community MUST, by nature of that community, support those other items?
 
I cannot for the life of me figure out what item 1 has to do with the rest of the list. Is Mr Hayes implying that those who are part of the LGBTQ community MUST, by nature of that community, support those other items?
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My perception is that Mr. Hayes supports more gun control and that his beliefs have nothing to do with his sexual identity. However, he is hoping to somehow tie unrelated issues together as a way to gain more support for his gun control agenda. Quite honesty this is nothing different from what we see others doing, but in some way it seems the LGBTQ community should be offended by this. To somehow say that if you are part of this group than you “must” support this or that issue seems offensive to me.
 
I have just deleted a post that contained slurs and a response to it.

Let's be totally clear that the next person who does this will be banned from TFL. You can discuss a person's position and reasoning without such insults.
 
Did anyone say this - gun rights were and are seen by some as an indicator of conservative and political beliefs. Such folks have not been friendly to gays or gay rights issues. That past cannot be avoided. Hopefully that is changing and the gun rights movement becomes inclusive.

The ability of some folks to demand the right to have an instrument of lethal force and then on the other hand want to be the bedroom/crotch police has always puzzled me from a perspective of respecting individual rights to lead your own life and protect it.

Similarly the ability of folks to demand the right to lead their own sexual lives but deny folks the ability to protect themselves also puzzles me.

We don't need the government in our holsters or in our pants.
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This! What you will find if you truly interact with the LGBTI community is that the majority, certainly not all of them, have liberal social views because historically the conservative right has historically discriminated against them. It does not mean there are not LGBTI conservatives but they are not the majority. It also does not mean all conservatives discriminate against LGBTI people.

People too often incorrectly view pro-gun stance to equate to conservative views on social issues which concern LGBTI. This is not unfounded but it is certainly not a universal truth. Up until Orlando the anti-gun platform has been secondary to the social equality the LGBTI community seeks but with Orlando that might change. It was not seen as a priority in the LGBTI community but many in that community are anti-gun because of any number of reasons.

If the LGBTI community sees themselves as a target of gun violence and they rally behind the anti-gun movement it should be a concern for the pro-gun world. This is an effective grass roots movement that in the last 40 years has effected massive social and political change. If you look at Stonewall in 1969 as the birth of the modern LGBTI movement in the US they have made incredible strides for their cause in the last 40 years. I would argue that it has accelerated in the last 10. They get things done at the grass roots local level and on a national level. They have done a great job of educating, informing and enlightening others to understand, join and respect their causes.

If the perception of the pro-gun world as anti-LGBTI continues they will be a force to reckon with. They are much more organized and effective than any other group in the anti-gun world. They should not be taken lightly. IMHO
 
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