Different iron sight types: explain it like I'm 5

[Pond James Pond]

I've been into shooting for quite some time now, but the ongoing challenge has often been the need to self-teach.

No family members or friends that are into shooting locally. When that happens TFL is where I turn.

So there's actually a lot that people take as basic knowledge they might pic up osmotically that has passed me by like a naval convoy in the night.

One is the characteristics of different open sights, be they on a long gun or hand gun.

So it's about time I learnt.

Can anyone explain to me the basic characteristics of what makes a target sight set-up, or hunting sights, or "combat sights" and what it is about those characteristics that fit their purpose?

 

[zukiphile]

Is this image too basic?

A selection of open sights, and one aperture sight suitable for use with long eye relief: A) U-notch and post, B) Patridge, C) V-notch and post, D) Express, E) U-notch and bead, F) V-notch and bead, G) trapezoid, H) ghost ring. The gray dot represents the target.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_sights

"H", the aperture sight, is the easiest for my eyes. I don't think I've ever seen one with "G". I was handed a lever action rifle with "D" once and couldn't hit anything.

A lot of american service rifles have used "H" sights for more than a half century, and variations of those are used in matches. I don't know if that makes them match or combat sights. There's an exaggerated verson of "H" that has a rear sight that is a large disk with barely more than a pinhole in it. It requires a lot of light but gives great clarity.

The field of view is so limited that it seems mostly suited to static target matches.

 

[Pond James Pond]

Is this image too basic?

Nope!

I've seen similar things but not with different profiles. Only ones that demonstrate correct sight picture alignment.

But I wouldn't know what they are best used for.

I've got B on my handguns, and H on my CZ452 and VZ58.

G I've always associated with the Steyr service pistols.

The picture is of a diopter? i know they are good for competition target shooting.

But where I fall flat is which is better for, say an IPSC pistol competition and which is best for stalking through the forest when a deer might run past at any given moment: what would a person use for those situations, for example.

 

[jmr40]

Another difference is point of impact. Most "target" sights are zeroed so he bullet impacts above the too of the front post. Take illustration "B" for example At closer ranges the rifle is zeroed so the bullet impacts right at the top of the post.

At longer ranges the rifle is zeroed so the bullet will impact well above the top of the post Once zeroed you hold the top of the front post at the bottom of the black circle on the target. The rifle is zeroed so the bullet impacts in the middle of the black circle on the target.

This is how it is possible to make hits at 500-600 yards with iron sights. The black circle on the target may be 24" across at that range. You couldn't see a 1" or 2" target without optics. It is easy to see the bigger target even without optics and you can get a consistent hold on bottom edge of the target even with irons. The rifle is zeroed to hit 12" high at that range. That places the bullet in the middle of the black.

On many hunting rifles front sights with a bead such as illustrations "D", "E", and "F" the rifle will be zeroed so the bullet impacts right in the center of the bead. Your front sight will be covering the point of impact. You see this mostly on lever guns or dangerous game rifles meant for close range fast shooting.

 

[Pond James Pond]

This is how it is possible to make hits at 500-600 yards with iron sights. The black circle on the target may be 24" across at that range. You couldn't see a 1" or 2" target without optics. It is easy to see the bigger target even without optics and you can get a consistent hold on bottom edge of the target even with irons. The rifle is zeroed to hit 12" high at that range. That places the bullet in the middle of the black.

Now that is another thing I didn’t know!

What a cool feature!
And so simple when you think about it!

 

[44 AMP]

Sometimes it is difficult for those of us who have been doing it for half a century or more to remember that not everyone knows what "everyone knows".

There are several terms in common use and some overlap, I'll try to keep it basic, but I've been known to give too much info, at times...

Iron sights /metallic sights are all sights not using glass and being considered an optic.

There are two basic groups, open sights, where the rear sight is not a fully closed circle and peep sights where the rear sight is a fully closed circle you look through.

Peep sights are also known as "Aperture Sights" and often called "receiver sights" because that is where they are usually mounted and work best, but not all of them are receiver mounted.

The terms bead, Patridge, sourdough and barelycorn refer to the shape of the front sight. V-notch, U-notch, express, buckhorn and semi buckhorn refer to the open rear sight shape.

all kinds of combinations are possible, and I've probably left out some terms, too..
Express sights are commonly found on "express rifles" meaning large caliber rifles intended for close range hunting of fast dangerous game. They feature a wide shallow V shape and usually a bead front for the fastest practical line up to stop an angry beast from really ruining your day. Elephant guns, and similar things have express sights, and often a folding leaf along with that for more precise shots at longer ranges.

Peep sights are based on a feature of the human eye, the natural ability to find the center of a circle. You look through the aperture (hole) your eye finds the center of the circle, where is where you put the top of the front sight post. Then you put your target on top of that post. Sights get adjusted so the bullet strikes the target at the set range. Very precise, but most precise with small apertures, which makes them slow to use. Larger peeps sacrifice a small amount of accuracy for increased speed of use. The largest ones today are called "ghost ring" sights, and are similar in intent to express sights, getting a rapid sight picture fast, with sufficient close range accuracy.

there are two basic ways to use iron sights, both having to do with the front sight. One way is to have the front sight cover your target (or be in the middle of your target), the other way is to sight in so that your target is on top of the front sight post. This is called the "6 o'clock hold"

Both are very good for certain things and not as good for others. The 6 o'clock hold is the way most pistols are set up today. it is flexible, and allows for long range shots without having the sight cover (and hide) your target.

The US military has been using peep sights since the 1903 Springfield rifle. On the original 1903 the peep is in the ladder rear sight on the barrel and was intended as a target sight. From the 03A3 on, the peep sight has been receiver mounted and is the primary (or only) battle sight. Our military rifles, submachine guns, and machine guns have been wearing peep sights ranging from complex fully adjustable ones all the way down to a simple stamped piece of steel with a hole in it since before WW I., so over a century now...

what else are you interested in knowing?

 

[Pond James Pond]

Well there's most of what I haven't learnt in 11 years of shooting set out in half a dozen paragraphs!

Initially the thread came to me as I realised I had no idea what I'd call the sights on my guns. I had not idea what they were best suited to.

That extended to then not knowing what a given sight type is called and why people might choose them over others. And when they say things like "well, these aren't the best sights for this job", when I might be saying "for crying out loud, why can't I hit that target?!"

So, the in truth I don't know what else I need to know.... yet, but the 3 responses so far have already taught me more than I'd gleaned for myself over all this time.

Which, somehow, doesn't surprise me .

 

[zukiphile]

I had not idea what they were best suited to.

Within limits, I think you may the biggest variable in the equation that gets you the right sights for a given use. If you thought that your 452 with the giant aperture disk were the best sight for a 20 foot speed steel match, I'd question whether you should be allowed to live on your own. However, whichever sight is comfortable and gives you confidence is the right choice.

A lot of pistol shooters are using red dot sights now. I don't care for those, but I have switch to a fiber optic front sight on one of my pistols; I think it helps with focus issues. Many say that iron sights on an AR are just an historical curiosity made obsolete by modern optics, but I find them comfortable and intuitive. I'm sure both those preferences flow from familiarity.

If you can try different options to see what you like or don't, you should feel satisfied with whatever you like. I don't like SeeAll sights or red dots, but I didn't know that until I tried them.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Both are very good for certain things and not as good for others. The 6 o'clock hold is the way most pistols are set up today. it is flexible, and allows for long range shots without having the sight cover (and hide) your target.

I haven't seen anything definitive from numbers of manufacturers, but my impression (based on my own experience) is that most semi-automatic handguns today have the sights set up for a center hold, not a 6 o'clock hold -- at 25 yards.

 

[44 AMP]

but my impression (based on my own experience) is that most semi-automatic handguns today have the sights set up for a center hold, not a 6 o'clock hold -- at 25 yards.

You could be entirely right. But consider this, no two people look through the sights exactly the same way. Most of the time, its close but not always.

My personal experience with this is shooting my Dad's pistols. He sighted everything for a center hold. He held on the center of the target and hit the center of the target.

When I shot the same gun, same ammo, same sight setting, same everything, I did not hit the center of the target with a center hold, but I did hit the center of the target with a six o'clock hold. IF there is an explanation other than we didn't look through the sights the same way, I'd love to hear it.

Seems to be that way with scopes, too (though its remotely possible its me ) Had an optics guy tell me it wasn't possible, but I think people can look through scopes differently, too.

Had a buddy I did a lot of shooting with. We would trade rifles back and forth, both scoped rifles. Using his rifle, I consistently hit 1/2" off my point of aim. And he was also consistently 1/2 inch off his point of aim shooting my rifle.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

There's no question (in my mind) that different people see somewhat differently. But if we put that aside, the center hold makes more sense. Either way, the sights are really only "on" at one or two distances (depending on how the firearm is zeroed), and everything else is subject to the curve of the trajectory. But, at the zero distance, the center is always the center. A 6 o'clock hold that's set to hit the center of a 6-inch bullseye will thus hit three inches above the actual point of aim. Now shoot that same firearm at a 2-inch bullseye, at the same distance, and the point of impact will be an inch above the black. My understanding is that most modern handguns are set up for self-defense, not for bullseye shooting, so they default to center hold.

Seems to be that way with scopes, too (though its remotely possible its me ) Had an optics guy tell me it wasn't possible, but I think people can look through scopes differently, too.

Of course. Unless the scope's parallax is adjusted to precisely the target distance, any difference in the shooter's eye position relative to the optical axis of the scope will move the shot slightly.

 

[chadio]

zukiphile, excellent diagram.

I like b and h. However, I put the alignment on the center of the target, not the bottom.

 

[STORM2]

I always explained to my boys the concept of various sights as we encountered/shot/owned them with the caveat that the shooter ultimately must decide what sight picture works best for them. Tweeting/adjusting/moving and all the other methods of changing the physical parts of the sight/optic/glass is owners privilege. Sorta like he who sits in the left seat is the Captain. If you shoot another person’s gun who is hitting targets and you are not; remember you can possibly blame it on your different vision/perception.

I must mention it’s fun when the parent sheds eye glasses after cataract surgery and the kids are old enough to need eye glasses but denies it!

 

[natman]

Is this image too basic?

A selection of open sights, and one aperture sight suitable for use with long eye relief: A) U-notch and post, B) Patridge, C) V-notch and post, D) Express, E) U-notch and bead, F) V-notch and bead, G) trapezoid, H) ghost ring. The gray dot represents the target.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_sights

"H", the aperture sight, is the easiest for my eyes. I don't think I've ever seen one with "G". I was handed a lever action rifle with "D" once and couldn't hit anything.

A lot of american service rifles have used "H" sights for more than a half century, and variations of those are used in matches. I don't know if that makes them match or combat sights. There's an exaggerated verson of "H" that has a rear sight that is a large disk with barely more than a pinhole in it. It requires a lot of light but gives great clarity.

The field of view is so limited that it seems mostly suited to static target matches.

Good post. A minor quibble: Sight "H" is a peep sight. The one pictured is a target version with a tiny hole. A ghost ring is a specialized version of a peep sight with a very large hole. The tiny hole gives great precision; the large hole is very fast to acquire a sight picture. A normal peep sight has a larger hole than the target peep and a much smaller hole than a ghost ring.

All ghost rings are peep sights, but not all peep sights are ghost rings.

 

[Bart B.]

Everyone looks through metallic sights the same way. The reason different people shooting the same stuff need different sight settings is they don't hold the rifle the same way.

No human eye automatically aligns them.

The reason a 6 o'clock hold is best for square post front sights on round bullseye targets is the vertical spread of shot holes is minimized.

 

[HWS]

You might look at Ultradyne iron sights. They have some new features plus the front sight post is a hole so you instantly see what you are shooting rather than bobble a target on top of a post. I threw away my scope and red dot sights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sunE2XsJVVA

 

[Jim Watson]

Lots of good information here, what can I add?

A majority of target shooters will adjust their sights for the 6 o'clock hold, the top of the pistol or service rifle's post front sight tangent to the bottom of the black aiming area; but there are some who prefer the center hold, once attributed to the USMC.

A match rifle will have a globe front sight with an aperture sized to the apparent diameter of the target. The sight picture is all circles, commonly the black bullseye, a band of white target, the front aperture, the outer ring of the front sight, the rear aperture. It is very precise. Apertures are commonly interchangeable, get the white band you like, or even put in a post. Some are etched on glass, just a floating ring with no visible support to distract the eye.

A lot of modern service pistols have post and notch sights style A or B but adorned with color; a simple paint dot on the front post, one on each side or below the rear notch for fast but coarse alignment at close range. A fibre optic insert gives higher visibility, a tritium lamp allows alignment in low lighting conditions, a gold bead looks luxurious on one of those $8000 custom 1911s.
Those can still be adjusted for a center or 6 o'clock hold, but there are a lot of them that are regulated so the point of impact is under the front sight insert, called "drive the dot."

But wait, there's more...

 

[Bart B.]

Aperture front sights have been used on match rifles for about 100 years.

Scores shot using them are often 99%+ as good as using scopes. Sometimes better.

With aperture front sights, you watch the target wobble inside it.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

A lot of modern service pistols have post and notch sights style A or B but adorned with color; a simple paint dot on the front post, one on each side or below the rear notch for fast but coarse alignment at close range. A fibre optic insert gives higher visibility, a tritium lamp allows alignment in low lighting conditions, a gold bead looks luxurious on one of those $8000 custom 1911s.
Those can still be adjusted for a center or 6 o'clock hold, but there are a lot of them that are regulated so the point of impact is under the front sight insert, called "drive the dot."

Aperture front sights have been used on match rifles for about 100 years.

Scores shot using them are often 99%+ as good as using scopes. Sometimes better.

There have been several opinions and viewpoints expressed in this discussion. Let's just keep in mind that no one type of sight is "best" for every shooter, in every situation. The OP asked a fairly general question, so the wide-ranging discussion will hopefully provide him the information he's seeking.

Can anyone explain to me the basic characteristics of what makes a target sight set-up, or hunting sights, or "combat sights" and what it is about those characteristics that fit their purpose?

 

[44 AMP]

Originally Posted by Pond, James Pond
Can anyone explain to me the basic characteristics of what makes a target sight set-up, or hunting sights, or "combat sights" and what it is about those characteristics that fit their purpose?

OK, here's an answer, but it may sound snarky. Nothing personal, its just my way...

The basic characteristic is, you look through them. The rest are all degrees of evolved adaptation to better suite the desired objective and provide better results.

And, its all rather relative with a lot of overlap, until you get to either end of the spectrum.

What makes a target sight set up??
the ability of being more precise, AND repeatable with the sight picture. How long it takes you to achieve the perfect sight picture is not a major concern.

This is why peep sights dominate target shooting. The human eye is better at finding the center of a circle than any other shape. Its pretty repeatable about that. And that's the key. Being able to do exactly the same thing, time after time. And the small peeps used for target work allow for the "Finest adjustment". But it takes a (small) bit of time to get on target and focused. The larger the hole you look through the less precise things get, but the faster you can do it. When you're shooting a stationary target, you've usually got all the time you need to line things up. Many people use peep sights for hunting and our military has been using them for combat for over a century now.

What makes a hunting sight setup?
Same as the target but with different emphasis. Speed of use and field of view matter more than fine precision. You could be shooting a moving target. The sights need to be "open" enough to keep that target in view as it moves, and don't need to be as precise as target sights, where the difference between scoring 9 or 10 might win or lose you the match. Minute of deer is minute of deer, something a bit bigger where a hit that would be an 8 on a scored target and one that would be a 10x are both equally "minute of deer" (dead deer)

Combat sights?
lots of opinions, several different styles in use today. Peeps up through ghost rings, various V and U notch combinations etc.

Essentially can be very simple or it can be moderately complex, it just has to be easy enough to use, fast. And the required "fast" is "faster than the other guy can use his on you". That's about it.

All are some level of variation on a few simple things.

A few guns have more than just one sight set up. Not many today, but some older guns did. A couple of the military bolt actions had rear sights that could be used either as V notch or peep sights. The notch was for rapid work, the peep for "long range /target" work.

One of my guns taught me a few things I had not realized. (ok, a lot of them have, but I'm talking one specific one here)

I had a semi auto 1927A1 Thompson. The deluxe one. Auto Ord gun before Kahr took them over. Long barrel (to legally be a rifle) finned barrel, Cutts Compensator, Ladder rear sight the works. Trigger was mush, but with practice one could do decent work. Gun itself was pretty accurate, using the rear peep, you could put 5 into a one hole group at 25yds from a bench or good rested position. AND using the peep with the ladder up, you could reliably ring the 200yd gong. Not too shabby for a .45acp semi auto Tommy gun. Now, here's the thing I learned...

For many years I always wondered why Thompson put the cocking knob on the top. Of course because it was in the ling of the sights, it had a large Ushaped notch in it. But, why didn't it get put on the side, like many other guns, and like the US did with the M1 variant of the Tommy gun??

What I learned was that BIG U notch made a fine "combat sight". Much, MUCH faster to use than the actual rear sight, and once you had a little practice, no problem keeping hits on a 2foot plate (torso size) out at 40-50 yds. as fast as you could pull the trigger.

precise? no. adequate accuracy, good field of view and FAST? YES, YES!

Same general idea with express sights, large open, fast to line up, accurate enough. Don't need X ring precision to stop upset buffalo or elephants, you need good enough and fast enough, the rest is way down the list.

So, to try and get back on point, what makes a target, hunting, or combat sight set up is how well it suits the user's ideas of what is needed.

All a matter of degree, and the perspective of the user (or the maker) In general, target is the most specialized and usually the slower type to use. Same sight with a larger aperture? Hunting or combat sight. (slightly less precise much faster to use)

Open V or U notch rear sights found on most hunting rifles plinking rifles (the ones that still come with sights) and many older military rifles (like Mauser 98s) easily do double duty.

clear as mud now?