Difference? electrochemical "BONDED" or simply "PLATED"

skizzums

New member
Going deep into researching the types of hollow-points today. It's amazing the brands of bullets i have never heard of when i get off the mainstream loading sites. Anyways, the question at hand, electro-bonded jackets...... Looking at various properties of bullet constructions and the effect they create, it seems that Speer's Gold-Dots are apparent to have early expansion while holding up structurally throughout the wounding event. I did not know that God-Dots had a very thin copper "plating", but this makes sense as to why it would be so effective on soft mediums compared to a thicker traditional jacket. But, why is their process considered some type of "bonding" yet not the same name applies to a cheap Extreme plated hollow-point or similar? And why do cheap plated hollow-points not expand? Early thinking would lead me to believe it is simply the amount of copper thickness that would either allow expansion or prohibit it. Why is Speer's plating superior, and why can't others simply do a softer thinner plate to same effect. If i am correct in my thinking, the new Berry's HHP(hybrid hollow-point) should be an amazing cost cutting alternative to Gold-Dot and hopefully performs(as to why only .40 and .45?!?!......one can only guess)

From what i thought i knew about "bonded" handgun bullets, was that it was a standard cup & core, then either molten lead poured into the cup before forming, or the swaged lead would be heated to a temp creating the bond, as in something like Winchester PXD ammo. I assume this process is only beneficial in strengthening the bullet over-all with added structural support to sustain integrity after deformation. This process, i assume, could be in two parts. First either the pouring of molten lead or heating of already added lead into the cup, not to the full weight of bullet, then adding a soft swaged top to the projectile so expansion is more easily initiated but the base stays strong for deeper penetration. Are these old school methods? Are most bonded bullets simply electroplated or are they using a different chemical bonding that allows for a weaker jacket like a Gold-Dot?

That's it really, i started thinking about it when seeing HSM hollow-points having "some" decent expansion, and then noticing that they also sold a "loaded" defense ammo and it said "PLATED HOLLOW-POINT" on the box and revealed to have a Speer Gold-Dot instead of their in-house plated bullet, why do they need to go out of house to get a plated bullet when that's exactly what HSM makes, why is Speers plating so hard for others to do. Now that Berry's is jumping in, Ranier also has their hexagonal hollow-point that doesn't bear the standard plated HP disclaimer "not expanding projectile, for target use" and have this quote on the website:
Rainier hollow point bullets use a true hollow point hex design, including stress risers and malleable copper plating for rapid, reliable expansion.
Sounds good, and i suppose the important thing to take away from that statement is "malleable". So why can't the other fifty plated bullet companies make their copper "malleable" as well and start saving us all a bunch of money?

what am i missing? and what other "premium" bullets are plated? and how is their process unique?
 
Tagged to follow , but I'll say copy right infringement . I/we have a patent pending on a product now ( not firearm related ) . If we get the full patent it would be unlikely anyone else can make the same thing or even close do to it's design and the utility patent applied for . We are hoping for are product , it's going to be like saying nobody else can make jacketed bullets . ;)

If these other manufacturers have specific patents to thickness of plating and how it's applied . It would make it hard to duplicate with out patent infringement . It may just be easier to use a gold dot bullet then trying to manufacture one that works as well .
 
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Skizzums, we have a friend that makes bullets, someone walks in and tells him what they want and describes how the bullet must function. and then? He starts.

Expensive! I do not have bullets that have been made by him, I do not need them, it would be nice to have in a collection. It is not that I am stuck with anything but when it comes to bullets I am stuck/surrounded by reloaders that believe the bullet of a 308 w round fired in a 25/06 left the barrel at 3' long.

F. Guffey
 
"...Gold-Dots had a very thin copper "plating"..." GD's use a jacket not plating according to Speer.
"Uni-Cor technology bonds an incredibly uniform jacket to the core—one molecule at a time."
http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/gold_dot_const.aspx
How the jacket stays put really makes no difference as long as it does. Plating, of course, is not a jacket.
"...why do cheap plated hollow-points not expand?..." Insufficient velocity. Even a GD requires velocity to expand reliably. A cast bullet will expand better than any jacketed bullet too.
 
O'Heir, i am not being smug, but i just think you may not have researched the Gold-Dot's process enough. It is as plated as any other plated bullet, you can correctly call any coating on a bullet a "jacket", but Gold-Dot's are not jacketed in the traditional terms which we speak of. It is, as far as my knowledge goes, a very similar process to Berry's, Ranier and Extreme's plating process. I am sure they must have a patented and proprietary process which make their plate unique to them though, but i am not sure something as simple as thickness could be patented. It's widely known that the consist expansion of GD's is due to the plating process that only allows pure copper molecules to adhere, making it softer than a copper-alloy jacket
 
Most outfits I have seen that plate bullets use electroplating a plating process that uses barrels with "danglers" in it using electricity and chemicals to evenly coat the contents of the drum. The coating is thin and copper so it's going to be quite malleable, how well it sticks will depend on prep.

You can play with the concept yourself with a trip to the store.

Go get some ZEP root kill (copper sulfate) and a gallon of distilled water. Remove 1.5 cups of water and replace with 1.5 cups of the root kill, set aside and let it dissolve.

IMG_20130313_154045_383_zps97e831ed.jpg


Next you will need some copper wire, I used the ground wire out of romex, one goes into the bottom of your container (connected to the positive pole on your power supply) the other will be above the solution and connected to the negative side of your power supply. The object(s) you want to plate will be hung from the negative source.

IMG_20130313_153255_305_zpsbcf23c73.jpg


You add the solution and apply power at that point, if you have the polarity backwards your bullets will begin to "foam" as they dissolve.
IMG_20130313_161130_139_zps90d65e7d.jpg


If that happens get you head out of your butt and reverse the polarity, I was using about 6 amps of current at 12 VDC.
IMG_20130313_161108_574_zps4c57dbe3.jpg


I only let them plate for about 10 min as the surface finish looked more like a sandblasted finish after I had the current reversed at the beginning but it did plate them.

IMG_20130313_163848_541_zps625f1fd3.jpg
 
jmorris is correct, I worked for a Nickel Plating company years back and we used electro-less nickel...we used racks and tanks instead of barrels and danglers...I can tell you though that when you use electroless plating methods it's like impregnating the surface of the metal you're working on and building on that impregnation...proper Prep is definitely the key and at least from my experience usually involves at least one trip through a very high PH Base and a very low PH Acid as well as other prep work.
 
When I first started casting I was pretty intrigued by the idea of home copper plate, some pretty cool setups on the yourtubes. Then after realizing how much time is involved just to do the lead collecting and cleaning and then casting, and now powdercoat, I think I have hit the ceiling on what 50$ savings is worth to me time-wise. If I am able to keep my lead levels under 30mcg/dl and survive until retirement, I may change my opinion and give it a try, bullets will probably be at least 200$ per k by then anyways. As for now, I will invest in Berry's HHP in 9mm, they have cleverly put the word out that these are comparable to Gold-Dots, they deserve to be evaluated at least. I have actually found some 9mm's online for about 6c, not a single reputable report which i find extremely odd, bring that YouTube money, yah c'mon...

I just in general found it odd that none of the discount "platers" have found a way, or desired to anyway; to make a suitable defensive lead slug and put a thiner copper plate. It seems like common sense with the cost is "premium" bullets being about 3x or more than plated, it wouldn't cost extreme anything more in material and even a mildly good round would bring customers by hordes. But as I say this, Berry's is doing just that, and they say they are selling so fast that they cannot predict when they will be up to the demand, and can guarantee no availability times ATM. So I assume the others will be following suit very soon, and if they work even reasonably well, it may be a big upset for the major players. Not sure if that's a good thing, the big guys have been spending gazillions researching this stuff, but we will see i guess.
 
I just in general found it odd that none of the discount "platers" have found a way, or desired to anyway; to make a suitable defensive lead slug and put a thiner copper plate.

I don't think it's the thickness of the copper plating that makes most plated projectiles undesirable for SD/HD. But the hardness of the lead core itself and the design of the bullet. Speer has done it with it's Deep Curls and Gold Dots so it can be done. Problem is, those are as expensive if not more expensive than standard cup and core. Most plated bullet companies are targeting the consumer that is looking for a cheap plinker to shoot paper.
 
A lot of the description of bullets is more from the ad agency than the engineering department.

A utility patent is good for 20 years from the date of application. The Gold Dot came out in 1995 and I would assume the patent was in the works before they showed product. This might explain how and when the Berry's Hybrid was announced.

I don't doubt a commodity plater could make a soft core, thin plate expanding bullet. But WHY? Is he going to be able to sell bullets to a Name Brand ammo company? Do you want to handload a LOT of gunfighting ammo? Do you want to buy your gunfighting ammo from Bubba's Garage Ballistics?
 
I am stuck/surrounded by reloaders that believe the bullet of a 308 w round fired in a 25/06 left the barrel at 3' long.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

I invoke the warning of Sheldon Cooper's FORMER roommate to roommate-to-be, Leonard Hoffstetter, "RUN, dude. Run FAR, RUN FAST!"
 
As for now, I will invest in Berry's HHP in 9mm, they have cleverly put the word out that these are comparable to Gold-Dots, they deserve to be evaluated at least. I have actually found some 9mm's online for about 6c, not a single reputable report which i find extremely odd, bring that YouTube money, yah c'mon...

No testing?? Here;

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=784077

Post #83 is where I wrote up my test on the 124 9mm HHP from Berry's. If you go there, you can see it's not THAT simple to make and expanding plated bullet. My conclusion is the plating is both too brittle and most especially too thin. Penetration was far too shallow. Now that expansion media is a heavy wax about the constancy of modeling clay. Testing took place @ 10 yards.

In a private correspondence form another poster on THR to Berry's, he sent my results to them. Their response was "well we did all our testing in ballistic gelatin". BG is way softer than the bullettesttube media, which is supposed to duplicate muscle tissue.

The Hornady interbond, swift schirocco, Nosler accu-bond and Swift A frame all have chemically bonded jackets. It actually works very well. The federal fusion, gold dot are plated in such a way that the copper is layered on to hold onto the lead. The rest are copper washed. I know very little about plating so take that for what it's worth!
 
Patent Information

Hello,

For those interested in the patent for Speer's Gold DotTM.

Search for Patent, US 6613165 B1, titled, "Process for heat treating bullets comprising two or more metals or alloys" on google patents. Or see the link below.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US6613165.pdf

The patent has heaps of metallurgy in it. One of the most detailed patents I have ever seen.

For those interested in what Gold DotTM bullets really are and how they are made, see the patent above.

Kind Regards,
STICKYNOTE
 
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