Did the SBR laws change???

[burninghXcsoul]

I live in Rural PA and we have 1 gun shop in town that stocks anything relatively fun other than the others who stock pretty much 30-30s and 870s if you get my drift.

I've been looking at getting a 9mm subgun for plinking around and I'm pretty sure I've settled on the CZ Scorpion. I went to my normal FFL dealer who doesn't stock that kind of stuff but said he could order me one for $710. I went to the dealer who generally has a lot of ARs and stuff knowing that the price would be higher but hoped he had one I could check out. He didn't but he said he could order me one for $849 and when I asked if he could do better on the price he said "nope."

While talking to him I said I wanted to buy the CZ pistol and SBR it. He said I should just buy the SBR version from him because I'll never get my paper work through the ATF, I'll make mistakes, I'll go to jail for felonies, and it will be faster through him. I said I already have Form 1 SBRs and Silencers. I have a trust and do the paperwork online and thats its relatively simple...

He then proceeded to tell me that he just went through a 7 week ATF audit so he knows all this stuff now and that all of my NFA stuff was illegal because I didn't do 2 forms and pay $400? He swore up and down that when you make an SBR or build any AR lower that you have to file a manufacturer form with the ATF and pay $200? I've never heard that before. He said that if you build an AR lower and as soon as you put an upper on it the ATF considers it a firearm and that you have to register it with the ATF. He also said since I've bought bare lowers and assembled AR's into functioning non NFA firearms that I need to register them with the ATF through him into the NFA because I'm now a manufacturer in the eyes of the ATF.

I said that my understanding is that the ATF treats the lower as a firearm already so why would I have to register it with the ATF? I'm not a manufacturer FFL, I'm just a guy who likes guns. I own all of my AR's that I've built and you don't register guns in PA anyway. Why would I register a non NFA firearm with the NFA? That doesn't make any sense. I said that when I did my form 1's that I didn't manufacturer a firearm, I manufactured an SBR and that is what I registered under the NFA.

I did a ton of research on my NFA builds before doing them and made sure I had my stamps before starting anything. I consider myself a reasonably smart individual who can read and comprehend things so I know I didn't do anything illegal.

The owner, his son, and his employee were so convinced that all of my stuff is illegal and that I committed hundreds of felonies and that I had better basically torch cut all my stuff and ship it to the ATF post haste and beg for forgiveness it was unreal.

So did the laws change and I just haven't found out yet or is this guy a freaking idiot? I know there were some EA's from the president that were geared towards what is considered a "dealer" in the gov'ts eyes but they never put out a number as far as I know.

 

[9x19]

He's either severely misinformed, or an outright liar.

Nothing's changed in that vein, and it sounds as though you did everything correctly.

 

[Theohazard]

So did the laws change and I just haven't found out yet or is this guy a freaking idiot?

Nothing has changed, at least not on the federal level. That guy is a total idiot and has absolutely no clue what he's talking about. If he actually believes that stuff he told you, I can't imagine how wrong he is on all sorts of other FFL/SOT-related stuff. I'll bet that ATF audit didn't go well for him.

It's the same as it was when you built your last NFA items: When you built an NFA item on a Form 1 you pay $200 and get your Form 1 back with the tax stamp affixed. And when you build a non-NFA firearm like a normal 16" AR, you don't need to do this. Not only do you not have to do this, but you couldn't if you wanted to; there's no mechanism in place to register a non-NFA firearm with the ATF.

It sounds like this guy completely misunderstood the executive orders that were finalized earlier this year. There are only two things in those orders that will directly effect gun owners: First, they slightly tweaked the definition of what it means to be in the business of selling firearms. So if you buy and sell lots of guns in personal transfers, there's a slightly lower threshold where you'd need to get an FFL or face the penalties of dealing firearms without a license.

Second, 41F is a rule that goes into effect on July 13th of this year. It makes it easier to build or buy an NFA item as an individual and slightly harder to do it with a trust or corporation. It removes the CLEO sign-off requirement when filing as an individual and replaces it with just a notification. And when filing using a trust it it requires all "responsible persons" to send an extra form to both their CLEO and to the ATF, along with a passport photo and fingerprints. This extra requirement for trusts only has to be done when you're buying or building an NFA item, and then it's good for two years. After two years, you only have to do it again when you want to build or buy another NFA item.

 

[dogtown tom]

Theohazard .....It sounds like this guy completely misunderstood the executive orders that were finalized earlier this year.

As did you.
There were no "executive orders" issued by President Obama regarding firearms. EVER. Not in January. Not ever.
This has been discussed ad nauseum on this and every other gun forum but some refuse to believe that NOTHING HAS CHANGED in regards to ATF regulations on what constitutes engaging in the business of dealing in firearms.

...There are only two things in those orders that will directly effect gun owners: First, they slightly tweaked the definition of what it means to be in the business of selling firearms.

No, "they" didn't. The definition of what is a dealer has not changed in 48 years. If you engage in the business of dealing in firearms you need an FFL.

So if you buy and sell lots of guns in personal transfers, there's a slightly lower threshold where you'd need to get an FFL or face the penalties of dealing firearms without a license.

Again, no.
No "slightly lower threshold" was set.

 

[Theohazard]

As did you.

OK, fair enough. Please correct me in detail then. I honestly want to know what I got wrong and what the proper information is. Was it an executive action instead of an order? Was it simply a clarification of what being in the business of selling firearms is? I read the Whitehouse website's info on it which was mostly political fluff, but I didn't read the text itself.

 

[Blindstitch]

The guy was fishing. Sounds like a shop you shouldn't visit.

A similar example but not NFA. My dad has a Knight Muzzleloader from the 90's. He shot it in December of 2014. He was in the process of cleaning it and I assume it flash rusted at the breach plug and he didn't want to force it in so he took it to a gunsmith.

The guy fed him story after story till July of 2015 all the while telling him about the Cva Muzzleloaders he had in stock. Time came for our annual fishing trip and one morning I suggested to go fishing in the direction of the gunsmith. We stopped in and he said the gun was a total loss that he couldn't find parts for or fix the issue. Packed it up and we went fishing. By the way the fishing was great.

At home a shot of Wd40 and the breech plug screwed right in. I cleaned it up again and in 5 minutes I did what he spent 8 months trying or not trying to do.

Don't be a victim of ignorance.

 

[dogtown tom]

Theohazard

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
As did you.

OK, fair enough. Please correct me in detail then. I honestly want to know what I got wrong and what the proper information is. Was it an executive action instead of an order?

Obama just restated current ATF regulations as if they were some new and brilliant means of curtailing the millions of gun crimes that occur hourly.
It wasn't an Executive Order, but a supposed Executive Action........which is laughable because his EA didn't bring anything new into the way firearms are regulated.

ATF regulations have to be based on existing Federal law. They are an administrative interpretation. No one, not Obama, not the ATF, can willy nilly institute a new regulation without a public comment period and posting the proposed regulatory change in the Federal Register.

Was it simply a clarification of what being in the business of selling firearms is?

Not really.
The ATF has had the same opinion of what constitutes engaging in the business for almost fifty years.
What Obama and the anti's don't get (or more likely ignore) is that Federal law/ATF regulations explicitly allow nonlicensees to trade/buy/sell firearms to other nonlicensees who reside in their own state and are not known to be otherwise prohibited. It doesn't matter if it's at a gun show or your backyard.

They assume that only licensed dealers would sell at a gun show, forgetting that licensed dealers were prohibited from selling at a gun show prior to FOPA '86.

I read the Whitehouse website's info on it which was mostly political fluff, but I didn't read the text itself.

You aren't missing anything but spin.
For those that want to read it: https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/01/04/fact-sheet-new-executive-actions-reduce-gun-violence-and-make-our

 

[Theohazard]

Thanks for the info, Tom. I know the ATF and the rest of the Executive Branch can't make laws or change existing laws, but I was led to believe that this was simply an adjustment in the way the ATF interprets and enforces a federal law, something that happens periodically.

41P and 41F were also part of the same executive gun control dog-and-pony show rollout and that's obviously a situation where this has happened, but you're saying that's not at all what happened in regards to the threshold where someone is considered to be dealing fireams?

No one, not Obama, not the ATF, can willy nilly institute a new regulation without a public comment period and posting the proposed regulatory change in the Federal Register.

Good point. Now that I think of it, there was definitely a public comment period on 41P, followed by the addition of 41F into the Federal Register. But I heard of no such thing regarding the issue with dealing firearms without a license.

 

[RiponP90]

I just did an SBR and that is insane. If you already have the trust and everything, what, just what? My shop had to stamp it as the "manufacturer" but it wasn't an issue at all.

I enjoy the fact that he promised it would be fast through him. While different types of forms do take a bit longer than others especially depending on how they are submitted, the fact that he says it will go faster through him is insane. Plus his fear tactic? I wouldn't buy from this guy ever again and I would leave a review on Yelp warning other potential customers to stay away.

As a shop owner myself I hate people like him, they give everyone a bad name and he deserves to be shut down by way of losing customers.

Sorry I'll step off my soap box now. I just hate fear sellers.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

The EA did make some changes about NFA trusts and individual NFA purchases.

 

[Sharkbite]

The EA did make some changes about NFA trusts and individual NFA purchases.
__________________

No it didnt... 41p was in motion WAY before he made his statements. All he did was state his feeling about the subject.

 

[dogtown tom]

Bill DeShivs The EA did make some changes about NFA trusts and individual NFA purchases.

Again, no it didn't.
President Obama's Executive Actions in January did not make a single change to anything. As has been mentioned many times, the President can't change laws or regulations by himself.......he needs Congress. (and Congress isn't keen on helping him right now)

The changes to NFA transfers, originally called 41P (proposed) and now 41F (final) were regulatory changes proposed over two and a half years ago.

If you'll do a search for "41P" you'll find threads that date to August 2013 when ATF first proposed the changes. While the White House was pleased to take credit, more than a few believe that well meaning folks at NFACTA were the ones that got folks at ATF to thinking. NFACTA had asked that the CLEO signature be eliminated...........and look what we got instead.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

I see.
Thanks for enlightening me.

 

[burninghXcsoul]

Well thats good to know... Like I said, I had done a lot of reading on tons of different forums and the ATF website to make sure I fully understood the process.

That being said, I've been out of the gun loop for a bit. I work full time, my wife had our first child 5 months ago and I started on my doctorate at the same time so my free time to read different gun stuff has seriously diminished let alone my range time.

I was pretty sure I was correct in my understanding of the NFA regs but with how adamant this gun shop was that I was now a felon, it made me want to double check.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

The gun shop owner isn't smart enough to understand that, as an individual, you can do things that he can't.
If he wants to change out stocks and sell a gun, or make a gun HE has to have a manufacturer's license. An individual doesn't.

 

[Sharkbite]

HE has to have a manufacturer's license. An individual doesn't.
____

I think Bill just hit the nail...

As an FFL holder doing business, if he buikds a gun to sell, he needs a manufacturing license. As an individual you (or I) dont. Fill out a form 1, pay the $200, wait for approval and then build the SBR.

That store owner is all wet in his understanding of NFA regs.