Did I miss something S&W collectors?

D

deadcoyote

New member
I'm not an obsessive revolver guy. Have a nice model 66, a 642, and a Dan Wesson 357. Just have an odd question. I'm very familiar with the J, K, L, and N frames. Never heard of an M frame? We're they discontinued quickly? Is there a reason why smith skipped over M if that's what they did?

Thanks in advance, you guys never disappoint.
 
The I frame was the immediate ancestor of the J frame. It was originally the .32 frame and .32 caliber revolvers in that size were six shot. S&W later used it for .38 S&W caliber, with the capacity reduced to 5 shots. It was used for the Regulation Police and the Terrier in .38, in addition to the .32 calibers. Later, the same basic frame was lengthened and somewhat modified and became the J frame.

Jim
 
The I frame was the J frame's grandfather.

A number of years before they introduced the first J frames, S&W introduced the Improved I frame.

It was larger in most aspects than the I frame, with an enlarged frame and grip area. It also introduced the use of coil springs in S&W handguns. Very few parts interchange between the I frame and the Improved I frame.

Although larger than the I frame, the Improved I frame still wasn't large enough to chamber the .38 Special cartridge, hence the even larger J frame.

The Improved I frame was kept in production through the 1960s (not sure when the last one was dropped) for guns chambered in .22, .32 Long, and .38 S&W before those chamberings were finally transitioned over to J frame models.
 
It also introduced the use of coil springs in S&W handguns.
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I always wondered why J frames use coil springs for the mainspring where the larger counterparts use leaf springs. Any particular reason for this?
 
Man, I was going to "call my shot" in the original post and say who can answer this before Mike Irwin chimes in. Now it's too late!
 
The improved I frame had the same length grip as the I frame, but was made for a coil mainspring rather than the flat spring. Also, it was longer than the I frame and the first Chiefs Specials were made on it. Later, the grip was lengthened to make the J frame, pretty much as we know it now.

As for the reason for keeping the flat spring in the larger frame guns, I asked the same question and someone at S&W said they felt the long flat spring gave a better and more consistent trigger pull, but they went to the coil spring because it was more reliable with modern harder primers and the light hammers of the small guns. Sounds reasonable to me.

Jim
 
Howdy

Sometimes a picture is worth a few hundred words.

At the top of this photo is a standard, K frame, K-22. At the bottom is an I frame 22/32 Heavy Frame Target revolver.

k22andkitgun_zpsa3d49053.jpg




Here the I frame 22/32 Heavy Frame Target is compared to a modern stainless J frame Model 63 22/32 Kit gun.

2kitguns02_zpscfbb0569.jpg




This photo shows the same I frame 22/32 Heavy Frame Target revolver at the bottom and a late Bekeart style 22/32 Heavy Frame Target revolver at the top.

22-32heavyframetargetpair_zps8b9457eb.jpg


You might ask, as I did, why would the I frame gun be called a 'Heavy Frame' gun, since it is clearly smaller than the K 22. The answer is that the K-22 Outdoorsman did not appear until 1931. Prior to that time, the only 22 caliber S&W side swing revolvers were the tiny M fame Ladysmiths. In 1911 San Francisco S&W dealer Phil Bekeart suggested to S&W that they build a 22 caliber target revolver on the 32 caliber I frame. The first 292 of these guns were shipped to Bekeart in 1911. These had the distinctive extended grip as seen in the photo. Since they were larger than the tiny M frame Ladysmith, when they were cataloged in 1915 they were called the 22/32 Heavy Frame Target Model.

An interesting aside about the M frame Ladysmith: Introduced in 1902 they were a tiny, seven shot 22 caliber revolver chambered for the 22 Long cartridge. A myth developed around the Ladysmith that being so tiny and easily concealed, they were the 'gun of choice' for ladies of the evening. The myth further states that when Daniel Wesson, a staid, puritanical old Yankee, heard this he ordered that production of the Ladysmith be ended. An interesting story, but Daniel Wesson died in 1906, Ladysmith production continued until 1921.

Ladysmiths are highly sought by collectors and even in poor condition they command a lot of money. I saw a nice nickel plated one recently priced at $1700. They are not safe to fire with modern ammunition, and so far I have not found one that I could justify buying for the prices they command.

I was in a local diner not too long ago, reading one of Roy Jinks's books on S&W. A customer saw what I was reading and asked if I knew anything about Smith and Wessons. I said, yes, a little bit. She told me she had her mother in law's old revolver and the woman used to call it her Ladysmith. You can imagine how my ears perked up. Turns out it was a nice, early K-22, not a Ladysmith.
 
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I paid well under half that for the Ladysmith pictured in #2, but as can be seen it is not in very good condition. Still, I learned a long time ago that if I want something and wait until a perfect one comes along at a price I can afford, I will wait a long time. The gun is not in good shape externally, but is like new inside and does not appear to have been shot a lot. They were made for .22 Long (not Long Rifle) and should not be fired with anything other than standard velocity. I might get some of that pop gun ammo and fire it just so I can say I did.

Incidentally, all those I frame guns were round butt. The ones shown appear to be square butt, but the stocks are made to fill out the grip. One of the guns made on the I frame was the Regulation Police, which is unique in having an odd "step" in the backstrap, apparently to support the wood stock if the gun were used as a club. (Driftwood, do you know if that is the case, or if not, what was the reason for it?)

The first K-frames were round butt; later they were normally square butt, with round butt standard only on the short barrel guns. Now, S&W makes about everything as a round butt and we are back to the filled out grips on the wood stock guns.

Jim
 
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One of the guns made on the I frame was the Regulation Police, which is unique in having an odd "step" in the backstrap, apparently to support the wood stock if the gun were used as a club. (Driftwood, do you know if that is the case, or if not, what was the reason for it?)
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Howdy

I dunno about using an I frame as a club. I suspect it had more to do with patent issues. When the Regulation Police model first came out in 1917 it had the 'shouldered backstrap' that you are talking about. To quote the SCSW

"The frame is made with a shouldered backstrap to accept a new style of square-butt checkered walnut medallion buttstocks with a patent date of "Pat. June 5 1917" stamped lightly in the the wood on the bottom of the left panel. The round butt grip frame is enclosed by wood, with the upper portion of the gripframe backstrap exposed. These unique stocks are not interchangeable with the previous models."

Currently I do not own a Regulation Police, gut I have 3 other old Smiths built on the I frame. They are, top to bottom, a 22/32 Heavy Frame Target with the Bekeart style extended target stocks, a 22/32 Heavy Frame Target with the Regulation Police style stocks, and a 32 Hand Ejector, 3rd Model, also with the Regulation Police style stocks.

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The little 32 shipped in 1925. I have removed the grips to show how they are inletted around the metal grip frame.

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Here you see the exposed upper portion of the backstrap.

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And here is the patent date stamped onto the bottom of the grips.

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Here is a close up of the grips and how they are inletted around the gripframe of the 22/32 Heavy Frame Target. This gun shipped in 1923. It also has the patent date stamped on the bottom of the grips.

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Lastly, here are the extended Bekeart style grips on the 22/32 Heavy Frame Target. This gun shipped much later, in 1940. Notice the inletting has been simplified on these grips. The patent date is absent from the bottom of these grips. I do not have an older Bekeart to compare how the the inletting was done. I have read that the early Bekearts had a separated serial number stamped on the bottom of the grips.

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Because the butts of these guns, the area whee S&W normally stamps the Serial Number, were covered by the stocks, the Serial Number was stamped on the front edge of the metal grip frame. Sorry, I am not allowed to post a 7th photo onto this post to show that.

Anyhoo, Smith and Wesson were always sticklers for patents, starting with their control of the Rollin White patent for bored through cylinders back in the 1850s. I suspect that the shouldered backstrap had as much to do with patenting the shape as anything else, that's my guess.
 
Here is the SN stamped on the front of the grip on the 22/32 Heavy Frame Target. You can also see the out of focus patent date on the bottom of the grips.

kitgungrips03a_zpsb1dbc7a4.jpg
 
I've heard the same story about the supposed need for the step on the Regulation Police's frame/grips.

I personally think it's BS, just another one of those great company legends not unlike the "Daniel B. Wesson found out that hookers were using his little M frame for protection, so he reached out from the grave to drop it from production."

Yeah.
 
Regardless of what it was, there had to be some reason for that "shoulder". Perhaps it was only to make a cleaner transition between the wood and metal when they wood was not to be brought up all the way. It would have been better than "feathering" the wood and creating a place where chipping or splintering would occur.

Edited to add:

Thanks once again to Driftwood for some great pictures and for sharing his extensive knowledge of those classic guns.

Jim
 
Thanks for the kind words. Yes, I surmise that the shoulder was there so the wood was not feathered to a fine point where the backstrap emerged from the wood. If the wood feathered down to a point, it would be prone to split and crack. By machining a shoulder onto the frame, the wood could come to a square end with less chance for splitting.
 
Thanks once again to Driftwood for some great pictures and for sharing his extensive knowledge of those classic guns.
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Yes sir, thank you as well.

I'd love to own a 22/32 Heavy Frame Target one day. They look like they are a lot of fun to shoot. I had an opportunity buy one at a pawn shop a few years ago. I don't recall the price. But the gun failed my inspection pretty miserably. The cylinder was way out of alignment, like someone either Bogarted the daylights out of it, or it was dropped with the cylinder open. Sad :( .
 
I used to have a .38 S&W Terrier, but sold it when I bought my first Chiefs Special a lot of years ago. I have a couple of .32's on the original I frame, but no .38's.

Jim
 
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