Destructive Searches?

M

Matt VDW

New member
What are the legal limits on how much destruction police can cause in the course of a search?

Suppose, for instance, that an informant tells the DEA that I'm hiding crack cocaine in the walls of my house. Can the DEA agents get a warrant, then come over and rip apart my house to find the drugs? And when they don't find any, what sort of legal obligation do they have to pay for damages?

Or suppose I'm a landlord and my tenant actually is hiding drugs in his walls. Do I have any hope of getting the DEA to pay for the repairs to my property?

I thought about this yesterday as I was cleaning up a used car I just bought. As I was trying to rid the car of the cigarette odors left by the previous owner, it occurred to me that if someone had used or transported drugs in the car, then there might well be enough residue left to "alert" a drug sniffing dog. (I don't think the previous owner was a druggy, but the possibility exists for anyone who buys a used car.)

The scenario I can imagine is a police officer pulling me over for some minor traffic violation, then asking for permission to search the car. Although I have nothing to hide, I would refuse just for the sake of discouraging gratuitous searches. So then the officer might call for a dog, the dog might smell something, and that could result in a long, seat-ripping and panel-bending search of the entire vehicle.

OK, so it's an improbable scenario, but I'm still curious about what the law says.
 
Matt, good question that I've thought about too. Waiting for answers......

One thing...I get a used car and I go over, under and THRU everything...look for loose panel screws or seat covers, check the AC vents...then I do a good cleaning using lots of chemicals. Better safe than sorry, since it seems that the DEA does what it wants anyway.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Matt VDW:
.......So then the officer might call for a dog, the dog might smell something, and that could result in a long, seat-ripping and panel-bending search of the entire vehicle.
......[/quote]

One would think THAT IS AN ILLEGAL SEARCH, if they call a dog in! If they can NOT search your car themselves, but a dog can... The police should need to get a Warrant if they want to have a dog "sniff" around your car, or any other property. The fact that the dog does not enter your car/home, ect doesnt mean it is NOT a search of said property, it indeed is a search without a warrant.


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Dead [Black Ops]
 
If you think that the previous owner may have been into drugs, you may want to go to the sheriffs department and have the dog go through the car (carry your receipt with you) just to be sure. When I was military, they (the SP's) wanted you to come by with the used car so they could stop any problems before they started. It's a good thing that I did use this service when I bought a '78 firebird, had an old seed in the console that the dog found; could have caused me allot of problems.

As for the searching without a warrent. I've been told many different things by different departments. Some say that they can use the dog because the dog does not "touch" the car so they don't intrude on your privacy. Some say that when you get stopped for a violation, you are under arrest or that is enough for probable cause to search your car.

As for payment, I think that if they have "probable cause", even from a "source" that may or may not be reliable, they are not responsible for any damage they've created. But, with 50 States and countless cities/towns, there are so many different laws that one really cannot answer this one without a asking a good mouthpiece.

USP45usp
 
Under current Supreme Court interpretation the house search would be legal. I have never heard of a police agency paying damages.

According to the cops I have talked to, if the dog is outside your car and he "goes off" that is probable cause. Interesting, eh? Of course, they can search your passenger space for weapons (officer safety, ya know?).

The 4th and 5th amendments mean less and less.

Thank you, War on Drug Users.
 
Ok USP,

So if take my video camera and film you while you are in your home (while standing on the street) I am NOT violating your privacy??? There are laws that say the above is a no no, so how is that different that a dog sniffing about your property?

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Dead [Black Ops]
 
The drug law, dog situation is very bad. I've trained enough dogs such that I could easily and fairly secretly signal the dog to bark. According to the court this is all that is necessary for a search to be conducted. I've heard stories that some cops will rub drug residue on a trunk of a car to ensure that the dog will signal so they can search.

So the rule is if the police go to the trouble of actually bringing a drug dog they'll get "probable cause" to search in any case.
 
Oh, forgot to mention that I saw a news report to the fact that most currency in the United States has cocaine residue on it. The culprit? Well ends up that almost all banks use automatic counting machines that also detect counterfeits. These machines become contaminated by money that has been in contact with cocaine and then they automatically contaminate all other bills run through the machines.

Nice. Wonder if the dogs can pick up the residue.
 
Here's another scenario:

Suppose I have a quick-access lockbox bolted underneath the seat of my car. (You can see one at http://www.handgunsafe.com .) I'm pulled over, and the police officer wants to search the interior of my car -- not because he has probable cause to think he'll find evidence of a crime, but supposedly for his own safety. (I say "supposedly" because I don't see how crawling around inside my car would be any safer for him than just writing a ticket and leaving. If he wants to be safe, he's going to have to search and cuff me so I can't attack him while he's searching the car. But at that point, I can't hurt him anyway, no matter what sort of weapons I might have in the car, so what's the point of the search?) The officer sees the lockbox and tells me to open it. I refuse.

At this point, can he arrest me for obstruction of justice, put me in the back of his cruiser, and pry open the lockbox with a crowbar? Or are locked containers "off limits" to some degree?

And what if I have a locked container but no way to open it? (Example: I'm driving my wife's car and I don't know the combination.)
 
I remember a t.v. show about 3 years ago featured some real horror stories from innocent victims of the "war on drugs". There was a Dr. who was on his way back to port after a day of sailing and the coast guard stopped and tore his boat apart because someone felt he had drugs on board. The Dr. kept insisting they had the wrong boat. They finally believed him after finding nothing and doing over $20,000 in damage to his boat. The CG didn't even apologize and basically threw their hands up in the air saying it was too bad he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
 
Over at Glocktalk's cop forum I am told that all the cop has to do is flip on his lights and "articulate his probable cause" that he saw me reach underneath my seat. That would allow him to search the car (for officer safety, don't you know?)

It is clear that the 4th amendment means little more on dry land than it does on the high seas.

Rick
 
"Or suppose I'm a landlord and my tenant actually is hiding drugs in his walls. Do I have any hope of getting the DEA to pay for the repairs to my property?"

Matt VDW, better hope not. Under the asset forfeiture laws you could loose your property through confiscation. I have seen it here in CA where a landlord lost his rentals because one of the tenants was a druggie. Why I no longer own rentals.



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Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erick:
In no particular order, some answers from my experience:

Damage during a search?
We carry claim forms from our county's Risk Management office in our search kit. But, our having to force entry doesn't create a claim.

[/quote]

What does create a claim and how are the claims handled?
 
Erick,

The idea of drug residue on money is not an "old wives tale." The news report I saw showed it was very easy to find traces of cocaine on randomly selected bills. I did have a question of whether this residue would be easy for the dogs to smell. You seem to suggest it isn't. That's good to know if true.

On the other hand I do know of individuals who have had their cars searched after the dogs signalled and no drugs were found, and no apologies were given. That is why I am suspicious of the accuracy of the dogs.

In my experience, limited nonetheless, police tend to go on fishing expeditions whenever handing a ticket to a young male. I used to tend to get smart-alecky until I had a cop threaten to beat me up. Still I refuse to ever grant a search. I know my rights and have advised many of my friends to also refuse all searches. Just because there are druggies out there doesn't mean I should have to sacrifice all my rights.
 
My car was torn apart once and I was arrested for concealed weapon ( knife in car, I was not in car at time ) and a buddie was arrested for possession of frenchfry ( officer said crack even though he new better ) threw me in jail and held my buddy for 3 hours till they determined that the illicit side order was not cocaine ( evidently it was very obvious, my friend saw the frenchfry ). Anyway case was thrown out of court and months later the cop was fired for sexual harassment of wemon during stops but they sure never paid for my lawyer, impound or tearing up my car. Isn't the drug war wonderful ? That happened over ten years ago and it still pisses me off.
 
If you really want to be scared. Who many of you rent cars? I rent cars for a living and you should be very afraid. You should look them over with great care. The last guy might be a dealer who forgot about some stash.. How you think the cops would handle it? Patrick
 
Grrrrrrrr.... Tears of RAGE for anyone who does get busted (or even searched) for something left in a rental or used car.

I don't know if that has ever actually happened, but there's something WRONG when
you have to fear being busted for something you didn't do.
 
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