Defunct ammo companies - loading 40-82 WCF

L

ligonierbill

New member
I've been scrounging supplies to load 40-82 WCF for an on-the-way Winchester 1886. I found a mixed lot on GB from several apparently defunct companies, and I wonder if anyone has heard of them.

First, a box of Connecticut Cartridge Co. smokeless rounds loaded with 250 gr jacketed bullets. Some were corroded and split (advertised as such, so I'm fine). I pulled all the bullets and found the cases nearly full of some short stick powder. Cases are headstamped "CCC 40-82". The bad cases are going to become 45-60 cases if I can trim below the corrosion, which it appears I can. I'll load the others with holy black or Black MZ.

Next, a box labeled "SAUK" loaded with lead. Have not tried to pull any yet. These are headstamped "45-70 Govt R-P". I thought cases for this round are formed from 45-90 (both offered originally in the 1886), but the Remington-Peters are the same length as the CCC.

Finally, some good looking new cases from Gaintwist Barrel Co. out of Cody, WY. These have no headstamp, and appear to have had the ends turned. Could have been formed from .348 Winchester, which I understand some do.

Any knowledge you have of these outfits would be of interest to me. I do have some 280 gr 0.407 cast bullets on the way from Buffalo Arms, so I'll be ready to go with new loads when I have the rifle.
 
I don't know much, but if by short sticks, you mean things that look like spaghetti, it's cordite. It was used early on in ammo, until they found out that it cooked off really easy in machine guns.

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Gotcha gotcha, disregard then. I knew the cartage was on the older side, so could have had cordite in it at one time.

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I do have one that was loaded with cordite: 577/450. And I bought 10 old Kynoch rounds for it. Only tried one: Click--what the--boom. A real hangfire. I think that was cordite.
 
I don’t believe that cordite was loaded by US companies. It was one of the first successful smokeless powders, used by UK companies until at least the 1960s.




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TX Nimrod said:
I don’t believe that cordite was loaded by US companies. It was one of the first successful smokeless powders, used by UK companies until at least the 1960s.




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Click to expand...
Yeah I know that the us elected not to use it in the wars, mostly because of cook-off issues, and the 303 Brit used it

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The Gaintwist Barrel Company advertised in Precision Shooting at one time. They made barrels for which the twist started out with a long pitch and the pitch got shorter as the bullet went down the barrel. The idea was that because bullet acceleration, both forward and rotational, peaked when the pressure did, which is usually in the first couple of inches of barrel, a slower twist at that point was less prone to strip the bullet, then the twist would increase as pressure dropped going down the bore. Theoretically, that meant you could have constant rotational acceleration all down the bore. This was supposed to support accuracy, but I don't recall any reports of exceptional performance from them.

You should be able to drive soft lead faster in a gain twist barrel than in a constant twist barrel since it eliminates a lot of the stripping force and only has to get fast enough to stabilize the bullet as it reaches the muzzle. That would make it appropriate for a lot of 19th Century cartridges and it interested me. But by the time I was ready to buy one to play with, the company had folded.
 
Connecticut Cartridge Company was a semi-custom manufacturer that started out, IIRC, sometime in the 1960s.

If the box is actually market Company, that means it's pretty early production as they apparently changed to Connecticut Cartridge Corporation a couple of years later.

They tended to focus on older, semi-obsolete rounds like .45-90, 8mm Nambu, and your .40-82.

As far as I know, they were out of business by 1990 or so.


Sauk? Who knows. Not been able to find any information on it at all. Could have been associated with a company in Sauk Valley, Illinois, area. Given that the rounds are loaded in R-P cases, sounds like they were a small custom loader.



Regarding the powder, ditch it.

Unknown powder of an unknown vintage. Given that some of the cases have started to corrode, it's possible that the powder is starting to go bad.
 
"Gotcha gotcha, disregard then. I knew the cartage was on the older side, so could have had cordite in it at one time. "

Extremely doubtful.

Cordite was never used for commercial loading in the United States, and it's questionable about how much was loaded commercial by Dominion in Canada.

The fact that these cartridges all seem to be post World War II vintage further makes use of cordite highly unlikely.
 
some short stick powder
Click to expand...

Nhyrum has sent you on a wild cordite chase.
There are several different US powders that would have been useful in .40-82 in the CCC days, but no way to tell which you have.

These are headstamped "45-70 Govt R-P". I thought cases for this round are formed from 45-90 (both offered originally in the 1886), but the Remington-Peters are the same length as the CCC.
Click to expand...

If you have the equipment, it is possible to redraw or spin cases to greater length. Obviously what was done to these.

The Gaintwist brand cases may be lathe turned. If so, don't size it any more than it takes to chamber it, it is not as ductile as drawn brass.

I no longer have the references, but I recall some connection between Gaintwist and Ballard, maybe even the same people expanding their operation into whole rifles.
 
You probably know this, but 40-82 an be easily formed from 45-90, which Starline can provide.
Neck annealing is recommended.

I am not an authority on the subject,but regarding original Winchester 1886 rifles...I have heard (but I cannot confirm) the original barrels were made of a very soft.free machining steel.
That does not imply they lack strength... But I was told to be careful of the rifling. Jacketed bullets (per this advice) are not recommended. Even cast bullets should be held to moderate hardness.

I do not claim to know this as verifiable fact. Do your own research. I will suggest a fine old 1886 is worth taking the time to find out.
 
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Winchester didn't move to nickel steel for barrels until the introduction of smokless powder rounds in 1895

Those barrels are marked. I forget the exact marking used, but it's very evident from the marking that the gun is intended for smokeless powder and jacketed bullets.

Other rifles in the Winchester line were slowly moved over to nickel steel. But, given that the .40-82 was never a particularly popular cartridge, it's likely that it was never transitioned to the new smokeless steel.

Unless the barrel is marked as being for smokless powder, don't shoot jacketed bullets through an old rifle.
 
I have not looked it up myself yet, but the rifle was advertised as 1895 manufacture. It is not marked nickel steel. So, fear not, I will not load those pulled half-jacketed bullets. Given the velocity of the round and the moderately heavy bullets, there isn't any reason lead won't do the job.

The Gaintwist cases show evidence of annealing. I believe the only part turned was the end of the casehead, probably to reduce the rim thickness of the parent case. New cases are made, but I have not found any in stock. I might get some 45-90 and run them through the sizing die.
 
An update: I pulled the bullets from the SAUM rounds and found smokeless powder once again. Looks like what came out of the CCC rounds, but who knows? I loaded some Buffalo Arms 280 gr. 0.407 cast bullets, first over 70 gr. Black MZ. That proved a bit hot, to the point the lever was difficult to open. Quit shooting those right now! Today, I tried 70 gr. FFg, and the results were better: 1,431 avg/27.4 std. They are basically on target, but pretty wide spread. I received some 0.408 bullets today, and I have a 0.409 mold and sizing die on order. I think the action would benefit from a complete disassembly and cleaning, but I need to do some research before I tackle that. Anyone done this? I would love to hear about it.
 
i shoot RL 7 out of my 86 in 40-82 with cast and jacketed bullets(1300-1400 fps), and have killed deer with it. winchester loaded lead and jacketed bullets into the 30,s i think for the 40-82 and sparing use of jacketed bullets will not ruin your barrel.
 
I do not claim to know for sure about the rifling and jacketed bullets. I'm not an 1886 Win expert.
An Old Rancher Gentleman asked me to look at the family 1886 that had provenance to the ranch back to when it was bought new.

It was a lightweight octagon barrel nickel steel color cased takedown model in pristine condition. 45-90 cal.

It seems like the book value of what I was looking at was around $13.000.00 at the time.

Doing some research into loading some ammo, I was clearly and emphatically told "No Jacketed bullets,and don't even use too hard of cast bullets"

FWIW,bullets from Mount Baldy Bullets in Wyo were recommended.

I simply recognized my position of humble ignorance and took the advice without arguement.

I'm not telling you what to do with your rifle.

And I'm not going to be "That Guy" who screwed up a fine old 1886.

Wheel Weight hard bullets will do original 45-90 velocities. Thats enough for me.

If I want to push a lever gun,I'll use a new Ruger/Marlin

But you do whatever makes you happy with your rifle.

Suits me fine.
 
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