Defining "General Purpose"...

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PaladinX13

New member
I know, I know, "Sigh another Scout thread, right?" It doesn't have to be! I'm just wondering how does one come to the conclusion as to what General Purpose really is? I guess the way I would go about it would be define the different roles a rifle can play, then weigh them in terms of importance... then toss your amagamation together. So what are the roles and how much would you weigh them? My own assessment (of course open to criticism, correction):

Collector- Owning the gun for novel reasons... because it's rare, because someone endorses it, because it's expensive, etc. Sentimental, historical, ideological value, etc. Ranks low on my scale. GP rifle is more of a tool than a collector's item.

Aesthetics- It matters, okay? Again as above, not too much for something that would be- God forbid, your only rifle. You can learn to love function over form. Low priority.

Target- Paper punching, plinking, etc. Shooting a lot and accurately is desirable. Most shooters are going to spend most of their time doing this even though it is not critical in and of itself. The common nature of this makes it a high priority on my scale, however.

Hunting- Somewhat rare event, whether for recreation or sustainence... however, if the latter, it's critical. That said, hunting demands aren't all that choosy, IMO. Realistically, if you had too, you can take game with a very very broad range of rifles. So a rare occurance, that's of high importance, but very broad needs... over all, medium priority.

Defense- Much like hunting, but rarer still and even more critical... also, like hunting, demands aren't choosy. If you should really get into a defense situation where you're reaching for a rifle over a shotgun or handgun, then pretty much any rifle will do the job of stopping and deterring at range. Medium priority.

Combat- Unlike the above, your targets are highly motivated versus mere goblins (in a looting situation, for instance) and probably much better armed. The rarest of situation, but falling into it, you want- if not need- the best anti-biped equipment... you're probably not a trained world-class sniper. So, the chances of this happening are practically nil and even so, you'd be better off with a dedicated combat gun... but if caught in such a situation, you'd like your GP rifle to be more than dead weight. Tough one. Low priority, I guess, giving a nod to the likelihood of the situation.

Any other roles or different assessment of weights?
 
General Purpose means it will do all things fairly well, none of them horribly, and none of them perfectly.

There will always be a better choice for a specific purpose.

A swiss army knife is general purpose, multi-use. However, the knife blade isnt very sharp, the screwdriver is never exactly the size you need, etc. It would be much better to have a toolbox full of individual specialized tools, but a toolbox cannot be carried in your pocket.

This is what a general purpose rifle does as well.
 
"General Purpose means it will do all things fairly well, none of them horribly, and none of them perfectly."

That's somewhat of an ideological response without getting into specifics. What exactly consititutes "All Things" and "Fairly Well"? Surely, the likelihood of a situation must figure into the "All Things" part of the equation and as to how Well they accomplish some of these things. "All Things" could include sharpshooting a tango with hostages at 700 meters in a 30kph wind "Fairly Well". It's too ill defined, IMHO.

The Swiss Army Knife is a good analogy, but even so, some thought goes into what is included and not simply ALL things. If you could, perhaps, list a set of jobs a GP rifle should be able to accomplish to specific parameters, that could be a start....
 
O.K. I may not understand this just right, but I'll give it a shot. My personal "General Purposes" would be in order of importance:

1. Informal target shooting and recreation: For that the weapon must be relatively accurate (to keep my interest at least). Ammo must be readily available and not too expensive to allow for frequent sessions. The recoil cannot be so severe that it interferes with the enjoyment of shooting for the recreational aspect, in my particular case this means not much more than a 180 grain 30-06 out of a standard Remington 700. I also need it to as close to 100% reliable as possible, as I lose interest in guns that fail on me. The gun should also be solid and durable because if it's going to get shot that much it needs to hold up and not have the action give up the ghost in 3000 rounds. Minimal maintaince and cleaning would also encourage more sessions with the rifle

2. Hunting: Since my main hunting is going after the Whitetails every year my rifle should also be able to handle this chore. For this it needs to be able to place it's rounds within at least 4 inches at 250 yards, with sufficient authority to drop the animal. While I'm at it, lets say the caliber should be at least resonable for Elk just in case I got the chance to go and my 06 was down at the time.

3. Defense: This is down on the priority list as I have other weapons more suitable for this situation, but it should preform at least to a level of confidense in this role. It should be light with a well designed stock for quick shots and it's sighting system should allow close range quick target aquisition (no high power scopes that don't allow for under 25 yards to be effectivly made). It should also have a capacity of at least 5 rounds. Semi Auto would really shine in this category, but may cost a bunch from the rest of the categories. The densive use of this weapon (again just in my case) would oddly most likely occur when pursuing #2 hunting. I'm a parole officer in a rural area and most of my clients know if I run into them hunting with a firearm there going to prison, if I get back that is. So it really has to be at least competitive in an outdoor environment. I carry a hangun for indoors type situations.

4. Ergonomics/Aestetics: OK form follows function, but a rifle has to be comfortable to hold shoot and carry if your ever going to fall in love with it, and thus achive a great level of competence with the weapon. It would be nice if it looked good too but thats low on the list.

Whew... So theres my "GP" requirments, comments welcome.

Best wishes the duck
 
We've all seen Cooper's definition, which I thought did the job fairly well for him. There was another thread some time ago that discussed the same issue, but got sidetracked. It's a discussion worth having.

A number of the people here on this board have strong political feelings re: RKBA, and it's worth incorporating those concerns into the list:
  • Ability to serve as a "militia arm." This is why the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution was penned; it would be nice to have an arm that would serve well in the role. This includes things like availability of ammunition and parts, suitability of the round it fires, durability in response to the treatment dished out in a combat environment, etc. Again, not terribly likely that it will be called on to fill this role, but the better it does so the better chance it will free up a slot in the gun safe (otherwise filled by an arm that would suit the militia role). Can't assign priority here -- either it will serve well or it won't, in which case the owner will have a dedicated arm instead.
  • Political correctness. We don't know what the next few decades will bring, but we can reasonably expect more restrictions on what arms we peasants are allowed to possess (ie: what seems least threatening to our masters). If you're going to go to the effort to design and build a rifle, it would be nice to be able to legally use it for its intended tasks: hunting, target shooting, etc. To me, a bolt action is politically safer than a semi, and a semi-auto with less than a 10-round capacity is safer than a "high capacity" semi, which is safer than a high-cap semi with a high-power scope, which is safer than an ugly battle-carbine (AR, AK). Opinions vary, but what's the point in owning a "general purpose" SKS in California if you'll be arrested for bringing it out in public? High priority.
  • Reliability and durability. This thing should be designed so that: it hides minor damage, as it's designed to be used and shouldn't break the owners heart when it gets scuffed up; it's reliable to a fault, as hunting and combat often times don't allow a second shot; it's idiotproof -- no-one wants a wedged, unusable rifle even if they do act stupid when the adreniline is high. Very high priority.
  • Hunting (to add onto the above): the round should be chosen to allow the rifle to take any game in the lower 48 states, and the action should be such that the rifle can be used for these purposes. To me, this means you'll need to be able to humanely take an elk or a feral pig, and some localities don't allow hunting with a semiautomatic action. This shouldn't automatically rule out the semi-autos, but it should be considered. High Priority, as my GP rifle is also my hunting rifle.
I'm eagerly looking forward to others' responses. It's likely that we won't find one gun to do everything, but I'd like to see how close we get.
 
battle has to come first,with defense not

being any different really. NOONE HAS to hunt and even in survival scenario, trenching thru pond dams, overlapping woven wire fence to make traps and seines, and taking small game and dogs is a LOT more likely-efficient way of gathering flesh food for nearly everyone. Shootin an elk or moose requires you to smoke-jerk a LOT of meat, and that may be QUITE hazardous to attempt if SHTF. if shtf, it will be a LOT MORE practical to brain a cow with a .22 and jerk-freeze the meat, even in montana,etc, than seek out an elk or bear! :-) One can always just CACHE an old enfield for hunting big stuff. It is a REAL low priority, while fighting must recieve the highest. Besides, deer are poached every day with .22 rifles, and few of us live in elk or moose country. and those who do would be well advised to migrat south if shtf. 223 with sp's can handle CAREFUL shots at deer and pronghorn, and once SHTF, no other types of shots should be taken. Not only will you waste a rd, but if the deer takes a step, gut shot with 308 sp can easily = running a mile or more, and may well be pulled down by the dog packs by then.Also, if hostiles are aroundm, do you want the noise? Do you want to be chasing a cripple? Deer arent hard to SNARE, NOR bait in, jacklight, and brain with the .22 conversion in your .223 auto rifle, either. (at 25m and less) When you are LIVING out there with them, taking young, females, etc, you can get such shots once a month or more often. Half your diet needs to be of plant origin anyway, or you'll get sick.
 
Uhhh... Trenching through pond dams, hostiles all around you and packs of wild dog's getting to your deer before you do? I'm not sure where you live or what your conditions are, but if thats really your situation at the present time how do you find the time to post so much? :D

I think a lot of us are looking for something to satisfy the requirements laid out above. Yours might be a special situation calling for the 11.5 inch .223 and chopped sig.

Good luck wherever you are though, Blue Duck
 
PaladinX13, I'm not sure about "ideological" in the context of GP rifles, but how about "...common uses fairly well..."?

I have several bolt-actions which will shoot inside 1 MOA; will kill animals or people, as necessary, and are reasonably aesthetically pleasing. Seems to me they fit the bill of target-shooting, hunting, defense, enjoying the artistic features...

As far as "real" combat or battle: That's just too low a priority for it to be a realistic consideration. I've been listening to "the end of the world" and all that since "Survivalism" began during the Carter Administration. I'm not necessarily saying I'll get another 24 years of "Chicken Little" noises and no sky-fall, but the odds are on my side. Should such a situation arise regardless of the odds, I'd say that a GP rifle beats heck out of a spear. I'd rather have a selective-fire something at such a time. I won't discuss methods of acquisition...

Variations on the GP theme include putting a scope on a Mauser-style military rifle, or on a Garand. They're a bit heavier, but otherwise are within striking distance of "General Purpose".

"Casual Plinking" usually implies .22 rimfire, and that's more specialized than GP. Same for "survival rifle"--not GP. For handloaders who would load some five grains of pistol powder behind a round lead ball in a 30-caliber, the cost of "casual plinking" drops to near .22 rimfire costs, but in a GP rifle...

Just some thoughts...

Art
 
GP = master of no trade used for them all. Swiss army knife is a good analogy.

For instance, boat paddle, splint, game rifle, poddle shooter defensive arm, militia rifle, sunday going to meeting rifle, long range and short range rifle.

Use the one you shoot the best. Where i'm at hunting IS a priority (I make it one) and i use only 1 rifle for all my big game I use a 30-06 savage rifle in stainless. If i had to I could use this rifle as a sharpshooter. Its not the best "combat" rifle, I'd rather leave that to the experts. But more parts generally means more hassles when the going gets tough. I'd choose my Savage over many other choices. If I KNEW i was going to a gunfight.. I'd be packing a shotgun or an AK.. but thats a very different scenario.

However, that old 30-30 on your wall suits this "GP" catergory JUST fine and may in fact be the best choice for many of the reasons stated by others. Its simple, rugged, has good knock down power on deer, looks PC holds 6 rounds and is short and light.

Remember, the GP isn't a specialized instrument, its a tool that has to do a lot.
 
General Purpose, Sir!

These are the kind of posts I love!
Thank for all the great insights to this matter.
I've been saving my gun money and trying to determine
what rifle would best suit my needs at the best price/value.
This discussion has helped me consider a lot of different
avenues. One thing I have also tried to include is how long
is the longest shot in my "neighborhood".

Thanks again,
 
My $0.02

I think "General Purpose" is a poor choice of words. And if you include hunting of animals in with Goblins your just confusing the issue. A gun is either biased towards hunting or towards combat. You can use one designed for hunting on goblins and vice versa but you lose things when you do.

Even Dangerous Game is not dangerous unless it can touch you. While Goblins can hurt you from long range.

If your only concern is defense then a shotgun or semi auto carbine backed up by a pistol or two makes the most sense. Since if only on the defense your never going to need to make a 300 yard shot.

If you looking at offense then you want a real rifle and the skill to use it well. Along with an understanding of the tactics & strategy of guerilla warfare, terrorism, and conventional warfare. You will also need some form of intelligence.

Now if your talking about a general purpose hunting gun, then you decide what the biggest & toughest critter your ever going to want to hunt is and pick a gun that would work well for that. That gun will work fine on smaller critters [people shoot varmints with Contenders in 375 JDJ]. For most people a rifle in 7mm or 30 will work fine for all the hunting they will ever do. For the rest a 338, 35 or 375 will do the job.
 
Glamdring, I guess I'm affected by knowing that the majority of today's hunting rifles are merely variants of the combat rifles which were designed before the era of selective fire.

Again, I try to avoid "One size fits all" in defining stuff. Combat in an urban environment is different from combat in open country. Desert is different than forest.

In my area, for instance, a good bolt-action with a scope can cause an incredible amount of trouble for a small unit of military. 200 to 500 feet of elevation advantage and 400 to 600 yards of distance is rough on folks in the open.

An MP5 might be wonderful in an urban environment, but it ain't worth a hoot for huntin'.

We've used the term General Purpose. I guess possibly "Multiple Use" might be tossed in to the deal. Or, "All Around".

Heck, I wouldn't get excited against the lever gun in thutty thutty, until you add in "my" arena of combat...

:), Art
 
I dont think war was ever a high priority in Cooper's mind with reference to the scout rifle.

He was trying to devise a weapon usable under the widest range of conditions.

I certainly dont believe he would have advocated taking it into combat. Certainly a scout could be pressed into such service and function if needed, but it is not a specialized tool for that task.
 
Yeah, I'll go with "can do anything the majority of rifles are designed to do", without expecting it to be equal or superior to rifles designed for specifically one or two tasks.
 
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