Define Conservative

G

Groundhog

New member
I hear this word used and abused on these forums a lot. I would be curious as to ya'll's various views on exactly what constitutes a "Conservative". I suppose this would or should be confined more to the political meaning since wild tangents would result (and probably will anyway) otherwise.

Thanks!
 
Conservative: One who CONSERVES tradional system, values, system of government, culture and sees the wisdom of generations of ages past (Founding Fathers, British/European law and customs)

A lot of people today lable themselves "conservatives" (republicans) but they aren't conservative anything (Geo. W. Bush for example). They are known as Neo-Conservatives. (which is a in liberal in disguise that is 20 years behind the Democrats but going in the same direction)
 
OK, hold up a sec. In addition what's above, tell me what you think a conservative IS rather than ISN'T. It doesn't help me at all to have the 'isn't' examples. That's what everyone is throwing around these forums.

What IS a conservative to YOU? Expound, give examples.
 
I repeat:

Conservative: One who CONSERVES tradional system, values, system of government, culture and sees the wisdom of generations of ages past (Founding Fathers, British/European law and customs)
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Ron Paul of Texas is a Conservative, Pat Buchanan is a Conservative, John Duncan of Tennessee is a Conservative. Each of these men may have slightly different views about individual issues, but as a whole they all support the Constitution as it was originally intended by the Founding Fathers. Meaning that the government was to be next to nothing but a referee between the states in trade and delivering the mail and organizing armies in times of defensive war.
They are men after the hearts of John C. Calhoun, Jefferson Davis, Lord John Acton, Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Edmund Burke. They believe states and communities of people better serve themselves by running their own affairs as they decide for themselves what kind of community they want. The conservative heart realizes, because we currently live in a fallen world, that perfection is NOT possible, so makes allowances for a little evil but still realizing the need for opposing it, but on the local, individual and even personal level.

The Liberal and Neo-Conservatives on the other hand, like Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, George W. Bush, George Bush, Bill Kristol, Bill Bennett are men after the hearts of Franklin Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Teddy Roosevelt, Abraham Lincoln and Thomas Hobbes. The believe that people must be centralized under one system and made homogenous. All problems must be solved by passing laws and enforcing them employing extreme measures if necessary. They don't see any place for real culture or civilization all they see are abstract ideas that must be implemented and society must be molded to fit their ideal (which is why we have political correctness). They have a view that evil can be rooted out and destroyed and the world can be made a perfect place only through force and legislation. This means eliminating local control of affairs and making all communities subserviant to centralized supervision. This means eliminating the means people have of defending themselves and their communities (gun control, or sword control).

It's a LONG story and indeed Old story, and entire books have been written on the subject. A good book I just started reading called The Long Truce: How Toleration Made The World Safe for Power and Profit by Prof. A.J. Conyers appears to be a good book on the root of this subject.
 
Thanks Doug, that is more the type of explination I was hoping for. It helps me understand the view better. I absolutely will add that book to my reading list too.
 
There are various levels of conservativism but in general I think it's someone that wants to keep things as they are, someone who's afraid of change. Conservatives have their good points and bad points. Sometimes their ideas are great; conserving the traditions of gun ownership and community. However sometimes their ideas are pretty heinous; conserving the ideas of blacks as property and only allowing men to vote.

Liberals are the same way. They have their good ideas; free speech and choice of religion. They have their bad ideas; socialism and gun grabbing. This doesn't mean all liberals agree with this nor does it mean all conservatives feel as noted above. However in general the conservation of traditional ideas means all ideas, even the bad ones.
 
Doug38.PR said:
They are men after the hearts of John C. Calhoun, Jefferson Davis, Lord John Acton, Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Edmund Burke.
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Actually Doug, the men you mention as being conservatives are, in fact, classical liberals.

You also mentioned Thomas Hobbes as a Liberal. True. But so was John Locke, from whom the founders based their philosophy of this government.

Conservatives, as a political philosophy, means that they would prefer the status quo, or even the status quo ante! That is to say, they want things not to change or even to change back to a previous (better) time. Conservatives tend to want a structured but central power.

Neo-conservatives are an entirely different creature. A blend of some conservative thought with a smattering of liberal thought as well.

Liberals, in the classic sense, tend to want to maximize the individual freedoms. This often translates into a strong local government over a weak central government. Liberals believe that it is at the local level that liberties can best be protected, since local control is always easier than any control over a government further removed from the people who are affected by laws.

Capitalism, as we know it, is a true liberal idea.

Todays liberals and conservatives are an odd amalgamom of both traditional definitions.
 
I have never seen so much misinformation

on a thread in my life. The internet can be a very dangerous place:confused:

PS I'm not singling anyone out
 
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I agree, Antipitas, the founding fathers were liberal in their thinking and our country was founded on liberal ideals. To be conservative then was to support British rule.
They word liberal, NOW, indicates leftist ideals. Another example of a good word changed to obfuscate the true meaning. Tell a lie long enough, and it is considered fact.
This is just my opinion, of course.
I have never seen so much misinformation
on a thread in my life. The internet can be a very dangerous place
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Enlighten us, News Shooter. What is a conservative?

badbob
 
Actually Doug, the men you mention as being conservatives are, in fact, classical liberals.

You also mentioned Thomas Hobbes as a Liberal. True. But so was John Locke, from whom the founders based their philosophy of this government.

Conservatives, as a political philosophy, means that they would prefer the status quo, or even the status quo ante! That is to say, they want things not to change or even to change back to a previous (better) time. Conservatives tend to want a structured but central power.
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I agree, Antipitas, the founding fathers were liberal in their thinking and our country was founded on liberal ideals. To be conservative then was to support British rule.
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Ummmm...in a sense yes in another sense no.
The Founding Fathers were liberal in the sense that they opposed what the British Parliment was doing (and the King not protecting them from the parliment and protecting their chartered rights as colonists). The Parliment was not supposed to have authority over the colonists. The Parliment was only supposed to control the British Isles (hence "taxation without representation is tyranny!")and, I believe, the King was supposed to protect and serve the Colonists of the empire. The rights they were standing for often were stated or implied in the British Constitution (such as the RTKBA).
Morally and ethically they were liberal in the sense that they were opposed to the moral rot and revolution of egalitarianism (tyranny disgused as liberty) and tyranny that was going on to a small extent in England that was even more prevailant in the rest of Europe (the French Revolution and it's fruits for instance).
In short, they were a counter culture of the counter culture.
They were Conservative in the sense that they were supporting traditional rights that had been handed down to them by their faith and their ancestors (such as the Puritans) They were standing for law, order and liberty. So was E. Burke and Locke (in a sense. Locke, while his works did influence the Founders to a significant degree did have some liberal points that they wouldn't have ultimtely agreed with I think....Dr. Conyers has an entire chapter devouted to him which I haven't gotten to yet)
All these men were opposed to centralism.
 
I have come to think of it in terms of constructions ... take for instance the interstate commerce clause ... a liberal construction finds all kinds of things there that were never intended to be there, such as gun control powers ... and a conservative construction finds only the intended limited power to protect interstate commerce.
 
Generally one way to distingush some of the "liberal" we're confusing is "Liberal" vs. "liberal". Or, in speech, "big L liberal" and "small L liberal". I consider myself a small L liberal, but not a big L liberal. A "classical" liberal.

The former is the Liberal movement/party. The latter is the adjective liberal, applying to such men as Milton Friedman, or "classical liberals".
 
Can there only be true conservatives where there is a constitution? I don't know what a conservative is but I know one when I see one. But they're rare! Personally, I consider myself a conservative and most everyone else a radical. It is all in your point of view. However, my wife (of 28 years) considered me mostly a radical. You all would probably consider me a leftist.

I am proud to be an American. Only in my case it was no achievement.
 
Well

The problem is the words "conservative" or "liberal" are just labels, and people apply these labels "liberally" ;)
 
I think it's like an accent- just depends on who's talking! To my liberal friends I am a conservative, to my conservative friends I am a liberal. To myself, I tend more towards conservative ideals, and I like right where I am at. To me, those at the extreme ends of the spectrum are from another planet.
 
I think it's like an accent- just depends on who's talking! To my liberal friends I am a conservative, to my conservative friends I am a liberal.
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hah! exactly. on this forum I'm viewed as a godless tree-hugging flaming fruit liberal (all of which I'm proud of, I might add) yet on another forum populated mainly by computer geeks and scientists I'm seen as a gun-nut capitalist pig conservative (all of which I'm also proud of :D)
 
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