defense ammo?

[MusHraeddur]

i've shot fed hydra shock, winchester hollows, and a couple others i can't remember...a friend of mine uses magsafe ammo for his self-defense load. he swears by them. their balistics on their home page looks impressive to me. what does anyone here at tfl have to say about them or any other defense rounds?

 

[eger precision]

The best defense round is the one that feeds 100% reliable in your pistol.

Also,you have to have almost automatic confidence that you can hit with it,after being completely sure about reliability.

Hope this helps.

 

[Mike Irwin]

I don't buy the theory behind Magsafe or any of the other "wonderkind" bullets that are designed to break apart on impact.

Penetration into vital organs is what is needed.

I'm fully in agreement with the information on this webpage...

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs5.htm


That information is, I believe, from Dr. Martin Fackler's group at the International Wound Ballistics Ass'n.

The prefragmented bullets look impressive until you realize that their effectiveness be can seriously hampered by heavy clothing, lots of fat, or the angle at which they strike the person.

On top of that, these rounds are OBSCENELY expensive. You're likely not to do the kind of function testing in your gun that you really need to do because they're, in some cases, $3.00 a PIECE or more.

Stick with proven rounds like the Federal Hydrashok, the Federal Nyclad, or even the Silvertip, or with one of the newer generation of HP bullets that show a lot of promise, such as the Golden Sabre.

I carry Hydrashoks in my 9mm, Nyclad +P 125s in my .38, and Golden Sabres or Hydrashoks in my .357.

 

[CastleBravo]

There are more theories about handgun bullets than there are probably bullets to choose from. You can't go very wrong, though, by choosing a jacketed hollow point made by a major U.S. manufacturer: CCI/Speer, Federal, Remington, Winchester, etc. Then make sure it is reliable and accurate in your particular firearm.

Personally, I carry the Winchester 175gr Silvertip in my 10mm Glock 20C and Colt Delta Elite.

 

[.357SIG]

I usually use Speer Gold Dots. I feel confident with any popular JHP currently on the market, whether it's a Slivertip, Golden Saber, Nyclad JHP, etc. If it works as designed, I'll use it. I don't particularly like frangibles.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

What Mike Irwin said.

I would also add what gunsmith Alex Hamilton said about various .45 ammo he 'tested' on deer in his yard. He admits they were not scientific tests, but that they were tests on live subjects (at the start of the tests), at random intervals (when they came to visit during deer season) that were subsequently examined, butchered, and later consumed. Alex said that the 230 gr hydrashok did substantial tissue damage, more than the other rounds he tried.

 

[PreserveFreedom]

If you are concerned with overpenetration (which is why most people shoot prefragmented ammo like magsafe) then I would stick to a LWC or SWC in a slower, but proven round like 38spl or 45ACP. Either will do just fine as a manstopper but (theoretically) would not rip through walls like a FMJ, JSP, JHP, or a fast round like 357 Magnum.

 

[WESHOOT2]

If you don't know what ammo to use suggest starting with Federal Hydra-Shok, regardless of caliber.

If it's not reliable through your gun next try R-P Golden Saber, then Speer Gold Dot, then give up and find a good 'smith.

And frankly, worry more about your shooting skills than the particular bullet you use, because the best bullet in the world won't make up for crappy shooting.


Kapeesh?

 

[David Scott]

A couple of points:

If superfrag bullets like Magsafe are so superior, show me all the law enforcement agencies that are issuing them.

There are lots of theories, but they seem to split into two major camps: big heavy bullets at medium velocity versus lighter bullets at high velocity. IMHO the reason both camps have data to back them up is that both approaches work. There's more than one way to skin this cat. Since muzzle energy is a product of mass times the square of velocity, I tend to use muzzle energy as an easy indicator of potential.

There are some differences in JHP bullet design that may affect stopping potential. Hydra-shoks supposedly expand better because the "post" in the middle keeps the cavity from getting clogged. Gold Dots bond the jacket to the core electrochemically, which means that while they expand, they also resist fragmenting, so they may penetrate better, and they do better going through barriers like auto glass.

The whole issue is complicated by anatomy versus shot placement, and physical condition of the adversary. A .22 through an eye socket is probably more effective than a .44 mag in the shoulder. Part of the problem with correlating "street data" is that an inch either way makes a big difference. Shoot someone in the lower abdomen, which is mostly soft intestinal tissue, and the shock is "cushioned" and dissipated somewhat. They might not go down right away. Shoot an inch higher, and score a square hit on the liver, it's a different story. The liver is dense and unyeilding, the shock will not be so dissipated, and the trauma is felt more severely.

OK, so what do I use? In my Ruger P95, Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +Ps. They're a bit heavier than the popular 115 grain, so penetration is better, but at about 1200 fps from a 4" barrel they have a good chance of expanding too. With 15+1 capacity, I practice double taps to get as much shock into the adversary's central nervous system before it begins to block off the pain via autonomous survival response.

In my wife's Kel-Tec P32 she uses Cor-Bons, simply because at over 1000 fps they carry about 15 - 20% more muzzle energy than other .32s. No .32 auto is going to hit like a .357 Magnum, but she practices Mozambiques -- two to the torso, one to the head -- and if that doesn't stop the perp, she'll just empty the rest of the 8 rounds into him and insert her backup mag.

When and if I trade up to a new carry gun, it will be either a .40 with 135 grain, or a .357SIG with 125 grain Gold Dots.

I still think a 12 gauge full of buckshot, or a .30-06, trumps them all.

 

[AAshooter]

Penetration is the Key

Based on the thread, I am assuming we are talking about handguns. Generally this are underpowered and a used due to portability.

Penetration tends to be a real problem for high-powered rifles but typically the problem for most handguns is under penetration. Specialty handgun ammo probably works great for choice shots on bad guys that are naked For example, shot to the chest with an open shirt.

However, the effectiveness can drop dramatically in real situations. For example, a side shot to the center of mass on a bad guy wearing a leather jacket. To hit vital organs, the round needs to penetrate:
1) Outer sleeve of leather jacket
2) Arm, including bone
3) Inner sleeve of leather jacket
4) Outer body of leather jacket
5) Flesh
6) Ribs
7) Important Stuff.

Many slower, lighter rounds won't make it to due sufficient damage in #7. I worry about fragmenting and hollowpoint rounds having the punch to get through all that.

Mike Irwin and Egar Precision make some great points. You want reliable in your gun, contollable by you as a shooter and make sure you have the penetration to get the job done. Generally for handguns, the problem is under-penetration.

 

[Jody Hudson]

Great discussion. Good points have been made.

My two cents:

Learn to be a competent shot with the gun you have.

Make certain that the ammo is reliable in your gun.

Use Quick-Shock ammo, unless for some odd reason your particular gun won't feed it reliably; however I've found it to feed better than average in all I've tried it in.

The Quick Shock is my choice above all of the expensive rounds, because I've found it to be better in every way. I've found it to be more accurate than almost any other ammo too, although at 2 to 20 feet that is not much of an issue. If I had my choice QS would be the only ammo I own.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Jody,

Is Quick-Shok making anything other than .22 LR?

I didn't know they were expanding the line.

Also, I have the same skepticism toward the QS concept that I do with the Beehive, Glaser, Magsafe, etc. Smaller, fragmented projectiles tend not to penetrate as deeply, nor to cause the same kind or size of wound channels that a single projectile does.

 

[Jody Hudson]

http://www.triton-ammo.com/

And Triton is here on this DG a LOT. It is my favorite ammo and the company is a dream; responsive, responsible and customer oriented... as well as truthful!!!! Hardly seems possible in today's corporate world. In fact my only compaint is that the do not have QS in 9x18. I've complained loudly to them for about a year and they still seem to have no plans to make ammo for my beloved Makarov. So I have now purchased a .380 and the ONLY reason is so that I can load it with QuickShocks.

I have done a bit of testing, hundreds and hundreds of rounds, with .22 QS and perhaps a hundred in other calibers. For some reason, and I really don't understand it, the QS has penetrated clothing over watermelon and cabbage (lots of jeans, shirts, and leather jackets from Salvation Army trash bins) BETTER than other hollow points and then almost explodes when it hits the moist substance!!!! The soup-bowl it makes in hard Korean Cabbage and semi-ripe watermellon has to be seen to be believed!

I have just ordered three boxes of .380 QS, now that I have a .380 and I look forward to testing it as well with my new FEG SWC .380 I'll be going to Salvation Army's trash bin for more clothing!!! And to the supermarket for the bad cabbage. Let the vegetable wars begin!

Take a look at the site for Triton. They make everything in QS, in most all calibers, except for .22 which is done by Blount the owners of CCI who have and sell CCI's .22 Stinger.

Get some QuickShock, it will spoil you for anything else, in direct proportion to how well you test it.

 

[TritonCartridge]

We're Listening

Mike,

Is Quick-Shok making anything other than .22 LR? I didn't know they were expanding the line.

Quik-Shok is a Registered Trademark not a company. Triton Cartridge produces the center fire loadings of this, Tom Burczynski’s more recent HP Design. CCI is licensed to produce the .22LR.

I have the same skepticism toward the QS concept that I do with the Beehive, Glaser, Magsafe, etc.

Apples & Oranges. The bullets mentioned are of a fragmenting design. Quik-Shok is a Controlled Separation Hollow Point. By changing design features we can control certain performance aspects; the depth at with the bullet separates, the number of segments it separates in into, the angle at which the segments travel off of the original wound tract and the depth to which they penetrate. The INS also considers it a separate design as witnessed by it being admitted to their testing, unlike the ones you mentioned.

Smaller, fragmented projectiles tend not to penetrate as deeply, nor to cause the same kind or size of wound channels that a single projectile does.

Triton has engineered the Quik-Shok to meet INS Protocols of a minimum 9” penetration and all loadings are tested with these Protocols. As for the kind/size of wound channel you are correct. A single projectile produces a single wound channel. Quik-Shok initially produces a single channel just like a conventional HP does through expansion, then at a given expansion level it separates afterwards producing three channels.

What also comes into play is the over lapping of the temporary wound cavities of these three channels and the crushing effect it produces. It is too detailed to go into here but if you would like to learn the science/physics behind the Quik-Shok I’d suggest reading Tom’s chapter in “Street Stoppers”. You may also want to read the Chapter in the more recent “Stopping Power” on the INS Symposium/test.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Triton,

Thanks for the information.

I'm going to look into this further. Do you have any links to the penetration testing? I read over the information on your web page.

I do, however, have some quibles/questions:

Fragmenting vs Controlled Separation...

That's something of a quibble. In both cases, both projectiles separate into smaller projectiles. That's fragmenting.

"The most important advantage gained with the Quik-Shok is the tremendously rapid energy transfer which is diffused over a large area within a living target. As each sheared segment is independent of one another, this unique terminal action promotes the compression of nerve-laden tissues trapped between expanding temporary cavities which results in maximum motor interruption."

The term "tremendously rapid" energy transfer doesn't really say anything other than "it's less likely to come out the other side of the target."

Rapid energy transfer has always been one of the bug-a-boos of the handgun stopping power debate.

But a bullet that dumps all of its energy into the first 2" of tissue is a lot less likely to have a telling effect over a bullet that cuts a hole completely through the target.

As for the comment on the compression of nerve laden tissue... Well, I'd love to see quantifiable data on this mechanism -- it's been one of the mainstay claims of the temporary cavity trauma proponents for a long time. But, to the best of my knowledge, no such data exists for it; it's only supposition, with no real way to test it without actually shooting critters who are hooked up to a lot of machinery.

That said, here's where you've got me interested...

"A second prime advantage, although a natural consequence of the dispersion action already cited, is that the cone shaped segment pattern which develops brings about a much greater increase in the odds of striking or affecting one or more vital organs -- even in the event of a poorly-placed bullet."

While I don't care much for the concept of a fragmenting bullet, this possibility, if combined with adequate primary penetration, does intrigue me because of the possibilities that it poses.

Is there any data available for actual shootings involving these bullets?

 

[TritonCartridge]

Mike,

We haven’t posted any penetration test results yet. We are compiling such to include in our next catalog after which it will be loaded to our website

Fragmenting vs. Controlled Separation...

Triton thinks of it differently. You may also want to take it a step further and include Frangible bullets. Frangible bullets are designed, for lack of a better term, to turn to dust upon impact with a hard surface and in a HP configuration the front portion of the bullet also does this upon impact with a fluid medium. Current Fragmenting rounds normally utilize small BBs loaded into a jacket/or into the HP. Upon impact the bullet fragments releasing the BBs that disburse in all directions. Due to their (normally) light weight these type bullets are moving extremely fast and, upon fragmentation, dump all of their energy… this is a good thing. However, the energy is dumped relatively quickly (i.e. shallow penetration) with the numerous low mass BBs penetrating a further. Controlled Separation means just that. The bullet segments (vice fragments) can be controlled as explained in my previous post. Additionally they are of enough mass to cause significant tissue damage in and of themselves.

The term "tremendously rapid" energy transfer doesn't really say anything other than "it's less likely to come out the other side of the target.

And isn’t this a good thing for self-defense…. Total energy transfer within the target.

Rapid energy transfer has always been one of the bug-a-boos of the handgun stopping power debate.

Not that much of a bug-a-boo. If rapid energy transfer didn’t come into play to any extent everyone would still be loading FMJs vice HPs for self-defense.

But a bullet that dumps all of its energy into the first 2" of tissue is a lot less likely to have a telling effect over a bullet that cuts a hole completely through the target.

Agreed to an extent. But none of the Fragmenting rounds dump that quickly. They are all in the 3” – 5” (crush cavity) range with the BBs penetrating further. On cutting a hole completely through - a good example would be 9mm FMJ. They do that, but how many people consider a FMJ a serious self-defense round.

As for the comment on the compression of nerve laden tissue... <snip> to the best of my knowledge, no such data exists for it; it's only supposition, with no real way to test it without actually shooting critters who are hooked up to a lot of machinery.

Some say that test has been done, other say it hasn’t and is a hoax. Only you can determine if you think it did or not. I will say this about the Quik-Shok though. Tom and others have shot numerous deer with it. Tom has stated that there are terminal forces at work that are normally not seen with handgun bullets. He has had lung tissue blown out of the entrance wound (path of least resistance?!). Further, in house, testing shows that the over-lapping of the three stretch cavities does damage tissue. You may want to do a search for posts by Tom Burczynzki (user name)

That said, here's where you've got me interested... <snip> While I don't care much for the concept of a fragmenting bullet

Fragmenting previously discussed.

this possibility, if combined with adequate primary penetration, does intrigue me because of the possibilities that it poses.

Caliber, Bullet Wt, Circle of Dispersion, Depth of Penetration, Recover Wt, Segment Wt. (averages)

9mm, 115gr, 3”, 9.8”, 113gr, 29gr
.40S&W, 135gr, 3.6”, 10.3”, 130gr, 36gr
.45ACP, 230gr, 3.5”, 10.2”, 229gr, 64gr

Is there any data available for actual shootings involving these bullets?

While there has been actual shooting we are not at liberty to release that info. Suffice to say that the bullet works and performs as designed. Again, if you want to learn more about the Quik-Shok try and get a copy of the chapters from the previously mentioned books.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Triton,

Sorry I didn't pick back up on this last week -- I had to go to New Jersey (ugh, land of the disarmed sheep) for a wedding and just now got back.

OK. Lots of interesting stuff here.

I think we're both on the same page with a lot of this, but I'm still skeptical (but I do tend to be that way about new concepts, so that's just me).

A few comments...

And isn’t this a good thing for self-defense…. Total energy transfer within the target.

Again, that depends on the overall depth of penetration. If the "total energy transfer" results in the bullet not having the ability to reliably penetrate deeply enough into the target to ensure hitting critical systems, then I'll take a bullet that will go through and through.

Not that much of a bug-a-boo. If rapid energy transfer didn’t come into play to any extent everyone would still be loading FMJs vice HPs for self-defense.

I think that is an ULTRA simplification of the point. The quest for the proper bullet, hollow point or any other, should be (at least in my opinion) penetration coupled with controlled expansion. In that sense, "rapid energy transfer" isn't a player, as far as I'm concerned.

See my point above.

They do that, but how many people consider a FMJ a serious self-defense round.

In the smaller calibers, such as .25 and .32 ACP, I truly believe that FMJ is the ONLY serious round to be considered for self-defense purposes.

While we can debate all day over the appropriateness of carrying such a small caliber (which isn't the point here), the fact remains that many people do carry these lightweights (I frequently carry a .22). Given that only the FMJ rounds in .25 and .32 have been shown to have anything close to reliably adequate penetration, I'd say that FMJs in those calibers are the ONLY choice for serious consideration.

Again, see my first point.

Finally, I'm looking copies of the material that you've suggest. I continue to be really intrigued by this concept.

 

[Jody Hudson]

Just Came back from Shooting Cars

Really! My brother recently bought some wooded acreage that has been an automotive dump for what looks to be 60 years. At first we thought there would be a market for some of the old vehicles for parts. Free car, you move it! Nope. Not one of the parts and restoration folks was interested AT ALL.

Soooo, I volunteered to shoot the cars when I get a chance! It has been interesting as I had not shot any cars since 1969 when my "shooting range" was a huge dump that a friend of mine owned. All we had was hard ball back then to shoot.

Some interesting notes: My .380 had identical penetration on a series of autos, trucks, school busses, barrels and mobile homes, as my 9x18 -- boy was I surprised. Now I was shooting Fiocchi and some other hot hardball as well as some pretty hot HPs in the .380 against some Norinco FMJ in my Makarov.

NOW, here is the climax... My .22 QuickShoks had VERY similar penetration in metal layers, i.e., shooting through some mobile homes that were lined up next to each other and through some car doors, truck bodies, the school bus and bus seats, etc. Those little .22 QS are explosive in moist media, but really do the job in junk yard tests.

Another surprise; I shot several different cars, etc. at very slight angles from my line of shooting, such as 5 to 20 degrees from my line of bullet travel; the 9x18 was the best at not being deflected, the .380 was next and the .22 QS was almost the same. About 10 out of 12, or more, of the shots fully penetrated the outside and inside of the cars even down to about a 5 degree from line of travel. I was certain they would glance off. I went over to an early '70s Buick, thicker skinned and a 1940s Ford pickup, much thicker skinned... and the results were similar.

Now here is the biggie... The .45 did better on a utility truck body with very thick metal and several partitions that I could shoot through. The .45, FMJ by PMC, a rather hot load I suspect -- went through the last layer that the others went through and dented slightly the next. Then I went to an old high pressure steam tank, quite thick, everything just flattened against the tank. EXCEPT.. The .22 QS split a tiny pin-hole of half the size of the bullet -- through the heavy metal and left the deepest although the smallest dent. Strange!!! The tank of course was a stiffer metal not as malable as the cars and trucks.

Car Glass, the 9x18 did the best on auto glass, usually penetrating the second window completely and sometimes a third (cars were next to each other some times). The .45 and .380 were similar. The .22 QS did the best on the older glass, going through one and sometimes two more windows than the others. I don't understand any of this, just reporting! I wonder if the .22 QS is made of a harder material to keep it penetrating while it splits apart and cavitates in wet stuff.

I did not expect the .22 QS to penetrate as it did.

I am awaiting my .380 QS. The ONLY reason I bought my .380 was to have it for QS loading... UNTIL, and I still remain hopeful, Triton will make QS in 9x18 which I still have no evidence that they will...

If the green briars don't get too thick and I can still get to the cars and trucks after my .380 QS comes in... I'll see how it does...