Defense Ammo-mainly .45

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GreenDragon

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I wanted to see how much input I can get on this one. Sorry if I'm kinda long-winded here.
It seems to be fairly well agreed on that the bullet weights in the major calibers can be divided into light, medium and heavy categories as follows:
9mm- 115 (lt), 125 (med), and 147 (heavy)
.40- 155, 165, and 180
.45 185, 200, and 230
I realize there are others as well but these are the main ones.
Now, The lighter bullets (basically) get max expansion and the least penetration. The heavy bulletsget a lot of penetration but generally expand less. The middleweights are generally in between. The light bullets are generally used or CCW, the middle for general police duty, and the heavy for more specialized police work (I'm REALLY generalizing here, please don't flame me..)

What I am wondering is why it seems that 80-90% of people recommend the 230 gr JHP for the .45 for almost all applications. It seems to me that for personal defense a 185 gr +p would be the way to go, especially with a slowe moving caliber and especially one that has such an incredible velocity loss from 3-3.5" barrels.
Somebody please explain this to me.
thanks
 
Have you ever fired a 185+p lately. It is not exactly the most pleasent round in .45 available.

First you must consider the philosphies used to creat each round. Both the 9mm and .40 caliber subscribe to the "lighter, faster" philosophy, at least for the most part. the .45 is a "heavy, slow mover". Without getting into a flame war, both approaches seem to be effective when done right. The .45 that seems to be the most popular right now is the 230gr. Hydra-shok from Federal. It has earned a very good reputation for being effective. Likewise the 115gr in 9mm and the 135/155gr in .40 have also gained a worthy reputation for the same reasons.

I think each service caliber has the potential for being effective. I think a good general rule of thumb to follow is the smaller the caliber the higher the velocity should be to maximize the energy of the round. In my opinion the .45 185gr. +p round was a feigned attempt to force a 9mm philosophy onto the .45. I just didnt work all that well.





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"By His stripes we are healed..."

PeterGunn
 
I would venture to guess it has more to do with feed reliability than performance. The reasoning generally given is "with today's hi-tech bullets, like Fed Hydra-Shok, they will expand just fine even at 750-800 fps, blah, blah....", which may be true, but I still don't see any reason for carrying that heavy of a load other than feed reliability. I think the other factor is not a logical one - tradition and inertia - people have just always thought that 230 grainers are "the s**t" for some reason, stemming from the traditional GI ball ammo - and just the fact it's the heaviest bullet one can get with ANY of the standard defense calibers - and some people just think bigger is always better period.

It is a fact that ball 230 AND HP 230s with a ball profile do feed better in most 45s. Oh, one other logical factor is people think (may be right) that since the 45 has a wider frontal area, even a heavier bullet will expand and fragement more, so that the heaviest are needed to guarantee adequate penetration. I personally don't buy it. I want massive expansion and fragmentation - the penetration will still be quite adequate from my Triton QSHP 165s with ad vels of 1250 (though I'll admit more gelatin & other testing is needed to confirm this - I can't rely solely on what Triton's testing shows). After the Quik-Shok in the pipe and the one topping the mag, rounds numbered 3 on are 230 gr balls for reliability and penetration. I figure if two quik-shoks don't do the job, more penetration is most likely needed.

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited November 18, 1999).]
 
Peter,
You never really got at the reason for not liking the 185 grain .45ACP... Help me out here. I really like the idea... it's not like Glaser or MagSafe who are trying to produce effective 100 grain 45's... I think that the 185+P is a great compromise.

Is there a reliability issue that you are concerned with?.. if so inform me and possibly save my life. ;) Just playin; but I'd like to know your response.
Ben

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AOL IM: BenK911
ICQ # 53788523
"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"

[This message has been edited by Ben (edited November 18, 1999).]
 
You might not want to be eating when you read this.

The way I understand it is:

Instead of having a light, fast moving bullet which slices through flesh, you have a heavier, slow moving bullet which tears and/or rips organ tissue, muscle, etc. thus adding to the trauma.

It would seem there is also the advantage of knockdown power. I've seen photos of a guy who shot a buffalo with a heavy, slow moving .50 (from a muzzleloader), and it stood the buffalo on it's hind legs. I don't think that would happen with a faster, lighter grained bullet. (I wish I had a scanner, it's pretty dramatic)

Also, a heavier grained bullet would keep a straighter path when encountered by bone, muscle, etc. I'd rather have a heavier grained bullet for penetration in case if the BG was wearing heavy clothing, too. Mind you, I'm not terminal performance expert, but I'm passing on info I've read about. It makes sense to me.
 
IMHO.......first make a hole (accuracy), then quickly make another hole near the first hole (controllability), and try to make big holes (45ACP, 10mm, 40S&W.......).

Makes sense to me. But I carry a mouse.

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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
You forgot the 135 grain loads for the .40.

With .45 big heavy and slow is just fine.
With the smaller calibers I feel you need the speed.
 
The compromise would be a 200 grain 45. I use this exclusively because it still has good weight and travels at close to 1000fps. I shoot target with 230 ball and there is know loss in accuracy because of the slower bullet. At least out to 25 yds. Most self defense occurances happen well within 15 yds. The point being that 230-185 won't affect accuracy at defense distances. The big question is which do you shoot better. I have shot +P's and I can tell you that the recovery time between shots is much greater. This means less time to squeeze off that 2nd round. The 200's worked for me however, I always keep a clip of 230 ball handy because you never know when you need the extra penatration. If I have unloaded a clip of JHP's and I'm still shooting the BG obviously is behind cover or wearing body armor. That's when the 230's come out.

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"It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue"
Live long and defend yourself!
John 3:16
 
We're splitting hairs here, folks. In major calibers, darn near all ammo produces OSS rates over 90%. I suggest you find what works best in your pick of weapons and use that.

Current pet likes the Silvertip 185 gr,so I go with that. Practice load is a 200 gr SWC.
But,t'were I limited to ball for some odd reason, it'd still be effective....
 
Are Rem Golden Sabers +P? I don't really notice any difference in recoil between them and Win ****e box 230 FMJ. Having never shot ballistic gelatin, I don't know how they perform in it.

BTW what flavor is ballistic gelatin anyway? :)
 
Just got thru shooting the new Taurus TI 44 special I got. I used both win 200 gr silvertips and corbon's 165 grain round.

The recoil was very mild in the STips, a little more stout with the corbon. I will probably mix the 2 for CC.
 
Its worth noting that John Browning originally designed his .45 automatics to use a 200grain bullet. Bullet weight was subsequently increased to 230grains at the request of the army. I would recommend the 200 grain Speer jacketed hollow points if your particular pistol will feed them reliably.
 
John Browning may have designed his weapon for 200gr bullets, but the fact is, the 45acp made a name for itself as a fight-stopper way before OSS tables or even JHP's. It made a name for itself with 230gr bullets. They seem to work, for whatever the reason, pretty dang well. Why would anyone want to "compromise" away a good thing by using lighter bullets? If heavier bullets work in this caliber,use it. I just dont see where a lighter bullet would give you any advantage over a 230gr bullet. IMHO.

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"To die as a warrior means to have crossed swords and either won or lost without any consideration for winning or loosing. There is just not enough time and generally not enough strength in the resolve of any man to do otherwise"-Miyamoto Musashi
 
See, George H., you surmised the prevailing view. But like most in the majority, you can't or don't say WHY!!! I'm with Green Dragon - I really don't get it. If (that's a big if) light and fast is better, then it's better period. 45 should be the same principle, just a little bigger boy.
 
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