Looking for input on the following problem. I just purchased a new Dillon 650 press. Last night I was reloading 45 acp. Out of 250 rounds, in 25 cases the decaping die punched the bottom out of the primer leaving the rim in place in the primer pocket. I changed the decap die from the Dillon die which uses a spring loaded decap pin to a standard die which has a solid pin. Out of the next 250 cases the problem was better but I still experienced 8 cases with the primer rim remaining in the primer pocket. As you can imagine this causes a tremendous pain in the progressive press. The cases are Winchester which have been reloaded several times using Wolf LP primers. I started with 1,000 once fired cases and 5,000 primers. These cases were previously reloaded on a Dillon Square Deal. I am into the last 1,000 primers and prior to last night have not had any problems. Any input would be appreciated.
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decaping problem
- Thread starter DWS1057
- Start date
I'm going to say without a doubt it is not the press or the two dies that you used. I have never used Wolf primers so I don't know if they have such a problem. Since they are reloads I don't think it is a military crimp issue. I would be interested in the solution / problem too.
I don't know if over charged cases can cause this problem.
I don't know if over charged cases can cause this problem.
I don't know anyone using Wolf primers / and most of us toss out all the Wolf brass / or steel, or whatever it is - we come accross...
My hunch is the Wolf primers are tapered or a little oversized - and that's why you're having the problem. I wouldn't continue to use Wolf primers / but if the wolf primers have enlarged the primer pocket / standard primers may be too lose now ....
I suggest you call Dillon help desk / they've probably had calls on the same issue / and can give you some guidance. I would just toss the cases you're having a problem with where parts of the primer are still in the case. There is lots of .45 acp brass around ....and free...
My hunch is the Wolf primers are tapered or a little oversized - and that's why you're having the problem. I wouldn't continue to use Wolf primers / but if the wolf primers have enlarged the primer pocket / standard primers may be too lose now ....
I suggest you call Dillon help desk / they've probably had calls on the same issue / and can give you some guidance. I would just toss the cases you're having a problem with where parts of the primer are still in the case. There is lots of .45 acp brass around ....and free...
That is very curious. It's as if the primers were glued in. Do you see any verde gris or other sign of corrosion that could bond the case and primer together? Did these cases sit in damp conditions for a long time? Have you been able to get one of the stuck primer cup walls out to look for signs of the trouble? I don't know if Wolfe primer residue handles moisture any better or worse than anybody else's? I've not heard it mentioned anywhere. Since I've never had any, I also don't know if the Wolf primer cups are especially thin or not? If you look through your other, successfully knocked out spent primers, do you see signs of the decapping pin having stretched them in the middle?
High pressure normally expands a case head and primer pocket, so primers become loose, rather than tight.
It seems a bit much for coincidence that as soon as you changed presses, this started, but since they had never been previously loaded on this press, I can't come up with a mechanism to explain it? You might call Dillon and ask if they've ever encountered anything similar and figured it out?
High pressure normally expands a case head and primer pocket, so primers become loose, rather than tight.
It seems a bit much for coincidence that as soon as you changed presses, this started, but since they had never been previously loaded on this press, I can't come up with a mechanism to explain it? You might call Dillon and ask if they've ever encountered anything similar and figured it out?
I sometimes have something similar. Usually on the 650 you suddenly feel you can't set the new primer - because the old one is still there. The decaping pin sticks aplenty from the bottom of the case, so the only explanation I have is that the primer gets stuck to the pin and then pulled back in.
It happens rarely enough so I can't get enough statistics on what cases/primers it happens.
Well, on the 650 it is a minor nuisance. On the 1050 it is far more serious, as it makes the machine jam.
So yes, I have seen this stuff happen. Probably has to do with the primer anvil geometry. Using a different brand die does not cure it.
It happens rarely enough so I can't get enough statistics on what cases/primers it happens.
Well, on the 650 it is a minor nuisance. On the 1050 it is far more serious, as it makes the machine jam.
So yes, I have seen this stuff happen. Probably has to do with the primer anvil geometry. Using a different brand die does not cure it.
Thanks for the responses. Some additional information. I had approximately 300 cases remaining so I did the following: Used the Dillon decap die in a RCBS single stage press and decaped about half of the remaining cases. Problem continued at the same rate as I experienced with the die in the 650. Decaped the reminders using a conventional decap die in the single stage press and experienced the same slightly lower rate I had with the die in the 650. As the first reply stated there is no issue with the equipment. My assumption is that higher rate with the Dillon die is due to the striking action of the pin in that die.
In response to posts: I contacted Dillon and their response was that they have heard of this happening and attribute most frequently to corrosion issues. I am rather religious about cleaning brass immediately after firing. I dump the brass in the vibratory cleaner as soon as I get home and run for 2 hours.
I took 5 cases with separated primers and split then in half with a cut-off wheel. The rim of the primer fell out when the halves separated. Both the walls of the primer pocket and the rim of the primer were shinny.
I have had several cases that the entire primer remained in the case. These primers had the bases bowed out and an outward protruding mark from the decap pin.
With respect to the 650, the snapping action of the Dillon decap die is intended to forcefully knock the spent primer out to eliminate the tendency of the spent primer sticking to the decap pin and being pulled back partially into the primer pocket. As for the problem this failure to properly decap causes in my 650, it will lock the press up in two different ways. The most frequent is that a new primer will partially seat and index in the shell holder all the way until it attempts to eject. At that point it will lock up. The second less frequent is that the primer cup will remain attached to the rim on one side as if on a hinge. This locks the press immediately. The only positive is that with the primers which separate completely you can feel the new primer not seat and pull the case out immediately.
After all of the above and all the input received, my best guess is that I may have had a sleeve or two of primers with thin cups. I have been using Wolf primers for the last 24 months because they are the only ones I have been able to get in quantity. This is my third cycle of starting with 1,000 once fired cases and 5,000 primers so I have gone through 14,000 primers prior to having any problems.
Further input would be appreciated and sorry for the length of the above
In response to posts: I contacted Dillon and their response was that they have heard of this happening and attribute most frequently to corrosion issues. I am rather religious about cleaning brass immediately after firing. I dump the brass in the vibratory cleaner as soon as I get home and run for 2 hours.
I took 5 cases with separated primers and split then in half with a cut-off wheel. The rim of the primer fell out when the halves separated. Both the walls of the primer pocket and the rim of the primer were shinny.
I have had several cases that the entire primer remained in the case. These primers had the bases bowed out and an outward protruding mark from the decap pin.
With respect to the 650, the snapping action of the Dillon decap die is intended to forcefully knock the spent primer out to eliminate the tendency of the spent primer sticking to the decap pin and being pulled back partially into the primer pocket. As for the problem this failure to properly decap causes in my 650, it will lock the press up in two different ways. The most frequent is that a new primer will partially seat and index in the shell holder all the way until it attempts to eject. At that point it will lock up. The second less frequent is that the primer cup will remain attached to the rim on one side as if on a hinge. This locks the press immediately. The only positive is that with the primers which separate completely you can feel the new primer not seat and pull the case out immediately.
After all of the above and all the input received, my best guess is that I may have had a sleeve or two of primers with thin cups. I have been using Wolf primers for the last 24 months because they are the only ones I have been able to get in quantity. This is my third cycle of starting with 1,000 once fired cases and 5,000 primers so I have gone through 14,000 primers prior to having any problems.
Further input would be appreciated and sorry for the length of the above
"With respect to the 650, the snapping action of the Dillon decap die is intended to forcefully knock the spent primer out to eliminate the tendency of the spent primer sticking to the decap pin and being pulled back partially into the primer pocket."
Well, I am not sure that is a very effective solution.
I have two presses running the same .40 caliber - a 650 and the 1050.
On the 650 I am using the Lee sizing die, on the 1050 - Dillon's with the snap spring.
I have NEVER experienced that issue on the Lee die. But it is somewhat frequent with the Dillon die.
Overall, I am not crazy about that spring loaded snap feature. I have it on some other dies and it seems to have issues.
Well, I am not sure that is a very effective solution.
I have two presses running the same .40 caliber - a 650 and the 1050.
On the 650 I am using the Lee sizing die, on the 1050 - Dillon's with the snap spring.
I have NEVER experienced that issue on the Lee die. But it is somewhat frequent with the Dillon die.
Overall, I am not crazy about that spring loaded snap feature. I have it on some other dies and it seems to have issues.
This is perplexing to me. I really can't count the number of brass that I have decapped. But in all of that time I have broken one pin and never had a had a used primer stick in the case. This summer I went and decapped 1,500 military crimped 223'2 and they all came out.
The 650, Dillon die and RCBS die never had one problem. I would tend to think it is a primer issue of some sort.
I use mostly all Winchester and TNZ (sp?) brass only. I just did over 3,000 45 rounds this past month on the 650 with Dillon dies. The used primers were Winchester.
I doubt the design of the pin and spring is the problem. There is another reason which I just can't come up with at this time. I have just went through too many pieces of brass to even think the dies are a problem, unless the spring is weak or broken. The only other thing I can think of is a bent or flat tipped pin.
The 650, Dillon die and RCBS die never had one problem. I would tend to think it is a primer issue of some sort.
I use mostly all Winchester and TNZ (sp?) brass only. I just did over 3,000 45 rounds this past month on the 650 with Dillon dies. The used primers were Winchester.
I doubt the design of the pin and spring is the problem. There is another reason which I just can't come up with at this time. I have just went through too many pieces of brass to even think the dies are a problem, unless the spring is weak or broken. The only other thing I can think of is a bent or flat tipped pin.
steve_podleski
Inactive
I know this is an old thread; I made a google search and found this thread. Lately I have run into the same problem with large pistol Wolf primers made in 2009 which is the date of the beginning of this thread. I strongly suspect a bad lot of primers with thin cups.
Welcome to the forum.
An interesting observation that makes sense. I note the Russian primers all seem harder to seat than some domestic brands, so it may be a combination of a bad lot together with an extra tight grip on the primer pocket. The only way to tell is to get a new lot number see what happens, if you are so inclined.
An interesting observation that makes sense. I note the Russian primers all seem harder to seat than some domestic brands, so it may be a combination of a bad lot together with an extra tight grip on the primer pocket. The only way to tell is to get a new lot number see what happens, if you are so inclined.
First of all I am a single stage guy. Although I suspect you might have a problem with the case rim sizes varies enough to cause a loose fit in the shell holder.
If the case is off center or just too loose on the rim to cause the case to tip. The punch pin will snag the inside of the case and cause the issue.
I would inspect the shape of the pin. I believe it should have some radius on it.
If the case is off center or just too loose on the rim to cause the case to tip. The punch pin will snag the inside of the case and cause the issue.
I would inspect the shape of the pin. I believe it should have some radius on it.
steve_podleski
Inactive
I have been using miscellaneous head stamps for 10 or more years, and had no problem decapping this brass until I started to use Wolf large pistol primers. I have used Wolf rifle primers for many years and never saw this problem. I checked the decapping pin and did not feel or see any sharp edges; I would think a bad decapping pin would punch through a primer. Do not know how cleaning primer pockets would help since the sidewalls of the pockets are proctected from fouling by the primer sidewalls
Well had the same thing happen on 3 cases so far of Rem 44 Mag from Rem, the bottom came out but 3 sides stayed in.
How old they are, no idea , as was my Bro's now deceased, so no idea when he bought them , maybe 70's.
I think called ringers or something to that effect.
Sorry for the side track on the post but can happen to any make, even ammo makers.
I guess moisture is the culprit, all red lacquered in also.
Jeff
How old they are, no idea , as was my Bro's now deceased, so no idea when he bought them , maybe 70's.
I think called ringers or something to that effect.
Sorry for the side track on the post but can happen to any make, even ammo makers.
I guess moisture is the culprit, all red lacquered in also.
Jeff