Dead Accurate Paper Puncher AR/.223 Rounds

JeepHammer

Moderator
Inexpesnive for the accuracy I'm getting using a Dillon XL650 Progressive press,

25.5 Benchmark,
WSR Primers,
55 Gn. Hornady Boat Tails, FMJ,
Lee Factory Crimp die with medium hard crimp,
Mixed brass, both Military and Civilian.
Full length resize in Lee dies.

Production rate is about 350 an hour, minus loading primers, cases, powder.

Every round final inspection in a case gauge.

No brass trimming after they are fired twice, I trim them to MINIMUM and don't touch them again.

Chronograph has them at between 3,000- 3,100 FPS out of a 20" barrel AR,
With 3,030 FPS being about the average in the strings.

AR with 1/9 twist H-bar National Match grade barrel that has seen about 8,000 rounds,
Printed 10 different 5 shot groups,
The largest was 1.120", the smallest was 0.800"

I've VERY happy with the recommendation of Benchmark for this Dillon powder thrower! THANKS GUYS!
 
I can under perfect conditions get 1.1" 5 shot groups at 100 yards with AR15s.
But I can under perfect conditions get 0.5" groups with other 223s.
I think the problem is how the AR15 chambers are cut, too far to the lands.
 
With my Varmint'/'Bench' (not really either) BOLT rifle,
These same rounds never broke 7/8",
And 3/4" groups are more common than 7/8".

I was turned onto this load here, and it REALLY works well for me.
A little dirty in the AR, but it shoots so well I'm OK with the cleaning!

Considering I'm punching these out for about 25¢ each, including lube, tumbler media, ect., I'm just tickled to death with them!

I tried 27 Gr. and the pattern opened up,
I tried 24 and the pattern opened up,
This 25.5 seems to be something that AR likes, and they run fine through the bolt rifle also.

Now, when I get these done,
I'm off to find a load with CFE 223...
The guys gave me a good start on that also,
But I haven't got the boards out with the chronograph together with the CFE.
I hope those turn out as well as the benchmark did!
 
Clark, do you know a smith with a lathe?

Pulling the chamber nut,
Cut a couple of extra threads on the barrel,
This moves the chamber backwards.

Put the chamber nut back on,
Then you can chamber the barrel the way you want.

The same goes for throating oversize.
Most guys use a military type gauge to check on the throat erosion,

But it's REALLY simple to cut a few extra threads in the barrel, Put the chamber nut back on,
Then re-chamber and you have a fresh, tight chamber again...
I don't give up on a barrel until the rifling is gone,
Nothing you can do about that...

I REGULARLY get rid of that long free bore in 5.56 barrels,
Chambering them more like .223 bolt rifles.
Then reload to .223 specs and the rifle tightens the groups right up, unless there is something else wrong with the barrel...

'Military' spec barrels have that stupid long free bore,
As do most after market barrels since they figure you are going to shoot military surplus at some point...
 
I can under perfect conditions get 1.1" 5 shot groups at 100 yards with AR15s.
But I can under perfect conditions get 0.5" groups with other 223s.
I think the problem is how the AR15 chambers are cut, too far to the lands.

You can get some real crappy barrels that wont even get you to 1.1" at 100 but can also get very good ones.

I have several that will shoot under MOA 10 shot groups but have others that won't.
 
JeepHammer said:
Clark, do you know a smith with a lathe?

Clark, I know you do your own gun work. I think the suggestion to set-back/rechamber would be interesting & prove your theory. I'm struggling with accuracy on my first AR also, but then again I have a "cheap" PTAC barrel.

BTW: Nice load JeepHammer!

...bug
 
My 'Standard' work up of a barrel that won't shoot is to take a good look at the rifling.
Nothing you can do about a barrel some idiot shot steel case ammo and screwed up the chamber entirely,
Or something that had steel core ammo with brass wash run through the bore.

When the rifling is gone, or the chamber is blown out, there isn't much you can do.

Then I gauge the bore to see if there are tight spots, hand lap out the tight spots.

Recrown the muzzle is always a good idea.
Lapping from the muzzle is easiest, and I have a tendency to rub the crown pretty good.

Cut a couple of extra threads, to move the chamber back and cut the chamber where/how I want it.

If it still won't shoot, I use it for a tent stake.
I've made a few tent stakes in my time, but I can usually get most barrels that still have rifling shooting reasonably well.

----

There is a CRAP LOAD of 'Information' written about AR barrel performance.
Most of it is just plain WRONG or it's being mis-applied.

Most of it has to do with bullet WEIGHT and barrel twist rates...
No one ever addresses the gas system in tuning for an accurate AR... And I don't know why since the GAS SYSTEM unlocks the bolt and opens the bore.

There is also something to be considered for getting that bolt to lock back up in the same place each time.

You will find TONS of info about lapping bolt lugs in a bolt rifle, getting the bolt face square with the bore, ect.
But no one seems to apply that to an AR...

I learned bolt rifles in the 70's before the days of the internet and applied the same principals to an AR,
And so far, they seem to work...

----

Back to weight of the bullet vs. rifling twist rates...

It's NOT the weight of the bullet,
It's the LOAD BEARING SURFACE on the sides of the bullet,
The part that contacts the rifling.

More load bearing surface, the tighter twist you can run on those little bullets.

Larger/longer bullets naturally have more load bearing surface, so they hold the rifling better,
Smaller bullets, especially boat tails, will have a tendency to strip the copper off the jacket and NOT twist with the barrel.

Longer bullets also naturally stabilize easier.
Shorter bullets like to wobble in flight.
Longer LIGHT WEIGHT bullets (NOT lead core),
Same weight as smaller lead core, but longer with a different core material,
Will stabilize just fine in the same barrel.

The big deal I run into a bunch is 'Crap' barrels from the factory.
ARs are so popular, they are cranking out barrels just as fast as they can make them,
The tools get dull, out of specification, but the barrels still keep rolling off the line... (There is a buck to be made, damn the quality...)

Run a bore scope down some of those barrels and you would think they were machined with broken glass!

Fire a few rounds, and the copper they collect is ridiculous.
Proper break in is mandatory for a rough barrel since the copper collected those first few rounds is going to 'Hydraulic' and magnify every scratch, pit, chatter mark, ect. as the new barrel work hardens.

When you get a barrel, it's 'Soft'.
The first 50 rounds or so is going to compact the grain in the metal, 'Work Hardening' the bore.

If there is copper being compressed into those scratches, pits, chatter marks,
When the barrel is new and soft, it will push steel aside, increasing the size of the 'Issues' in the barrel,
Making them 'Problems'.

CLEAN THE CRAP OUT OF THAT BARREL when you get it.
Scrub with something that will break the chips/burrs off the rifling edges.

Then shoot a couple of rounds,
Clean the copper out!
Do that for about 20 times, keeping the copper from building up in the barrel.

As you shoot, two things are happening,
One is the barrel is work hardening, also described by some shooters as 'Settling In',

The second is, any copper in the pits is getting hit with HUGE FORCES by the next round down the tube,
Along with that, any sharp edges are STILL taking copper off the next round, and adding it to the copper in the hole.

If you REMOVE the copper in the hole, scratch, ect.
Then the next round SMOOTHS OVER the sharp edge eventually, but you have to keep cleaning out the copper for this to happen while the barrel is work hardening.

----

There are 'Fire Lapping' products out there,
An abrasive grease you put in the bore or on the bullets,
Or bullets with abrasive impregnated into them.

FIRE LAPPING is a last ditch, last resort to save a barrel.
NEVER FIRE LAP A NEW BARREL!

----

Proper break in, when you can clean that barrel with two or three patches,
And it's STOPPED picking up a bunch of copper is when it's clean and broken in, all the imperfections are smoothed out as much as they are going to be...

Even hand lapping will remove rifling edges to an extent,
So unless you have a tight spot, Don't hand lap a new barrel.
Most of us don't have the equipment to lap a new barrel without screwing up the rifling edges at least somewhat...

Getting MOA out of a H-bar AR shouldn't be like giving up a first born,
But most guys get the new AR, go buy surplus ammo,
And throw 200 or 300 rounds down range.

Surplus ammo often times has 'Ball' powder, which creates hard carbon when it burns.
Again, an abrasive in the bore which gets ground into the bore when you fire the next round...

I load up some 'Break In' or 'Soft' loads, go to the range with the full cleaning kit, spend the afternoon breaking in the new barrel...

The LESS force you put on that new barrel that has 'Issues' the less you will magnify those issues into a permanent 'Problem'...

Lots of copper killer bore cleaner (Another good reason to do it at the range),
Lots of scrubbing the bore,
And a new barrel usually 'Settles In' fairly accurately...

If it doesn't do what you want in the first 500 rounds or so,
Then start looking for problems elsewhere,
Tight spots in the bore (Poor tooling during manufacture),
Rifling that stripped broke/stripped off (Poor heat treating),
Muzzle Crown, excessively loose or tight chamber free bore, ect.

Don't know if any of this will work for you, but it's done a pretty good job for me over the years.
 
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JeepHammer,
Thanks for sharing your wisdom. I am new to rifles and have my first AR on order. I should pick it up this week ;) I picked up 55 grain Hornady FMJ-BT and after reading your viewpoint of the shorter bearing surface it makes me question if this is the wrong pill? When you say load light to break in the barrel, do you load lighter than published minimum loads or just light enough to cycle the action? I have loaded pistol for years but this rifle stuff is all new to me. I have IMR6064 and Hogdon H335 on hand to start out with. Any pointers you care to share would be appreciated.
 
I design and build performance suspension parts for 'Hot Rods' and race cars.

I get asked the same question all the time,
"How do I make my car go faster around the track?"

I don't lie to them, sell them the 'Super Duper' this or that.

I tell them to spend the money, go to a good DRIVING SCHOOL and learn to drive,
Learn the difference between understeer and oversteer,
Learn the difference between aiming at the open spot between cones and aiming at the cones,
Learn to control loss of traction, ect.

Once you KNOW what the car is *Supposed* to be doing,
Then you can make a rational decision on what you need to make the vehicle go around corners.

The same thing applies to shooting ACCURATELY.
Shooting accurately IS NOT an inherent skill set we have.
We MUST learn how to shoot accurately...

That means finding a qualified instructor,
Doing EXACTLY what he/she tells you,
Correcting your behavior,
And PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!

Shooting is a PERISHABLE SKILL SET.

If you don't exercise it, IT WILL ATROPHY.

----

One HUGE misconseption I keep hearing is 'Over Stabilization' of the bullet,
Spinning the bullet TOO FAST...

First off,
"Over Stabilization" is an Oxymoron.
There is no such thing.
The bullet either stabilizes or it doesn't,
There is no 'Over Stabilization'.

Secondly,
It's pretty easy to get a long bullet stabilized,
MUCH HARDER to get a smaller bullet to stabilize.
It's like trying to put spin on a base ball or a foot ball.
The foot ball is going to stabilize sooner and better, for longer distance every time...

I know this runs contrary to the 'Internet Experts' version of things...

Third thing is, It's VERY DIFFICULT to spin a small bullet so fast it becomes erratic.
What you are normally doing with a fast twist barrel is stripping the jacket off the bullet, so the bullet never gets up to the spin rate it needs to stabilize.

Again, against 'Popular' beliefs,
But after 'Key Holing' a few rounds, digging a few bullets out of backstops, seeing the rifling missing from the jackets, you will figure it out on your own.

That's where you SLOW THE BULLET DOWN a little, see if it's still 'Key Holing' and running all over the target...

If the bullet comes in reasonably accurate, then you found the issue.

Finding long curls/ribbons of copper when you swab the bore is a sure sign you are throwing too much velocity at the bullet you are firing.
Copper should NEVER come out of the bore in 'Strips' of any kind,
And even if you find 'Flakes' that are 'Kind of long' you are stripping the jacket...

SLOWING DOWN some bullets help keep them MATED to the rifling.

Most guys that strip the jacket are trying to load to MAXIMUM and well beyond,

Or they are loading 'Hot' and using MUCH too fast of a twist barrel for the load bearing surface they have on the bullet.

What I've seen, and this may not apply to others experience...

The old 1/12 (1 turn in 12") or 1/14 barrels throw those little, light weight bullets fine.
The 5.56 version of ARs were built for 52 & 55 grain, boat tail bullets.

When you shoot like I do, mostly 55-65 grain bullets,
You want a little tighter twist rate,
But if you are shooting boat tails, with LONG tapered snouts,
Then there is less bearing surface area in contact with the rifling.

While 1/10 to 1/14 is pretty common for 'Varmint' bolt rifles that use 35 to 45 Grain bullets,
You want something a little tighter twist for the 55-65 grain bullets I run most times,
(Or you want to slow the bullet down a little so it can hold the rifling...)

Now, some guys won't accept a .223 or 5.56 that isn't running AT LEAST 3,200 to 3,400 FPS.
I used to be one of those guys...
When you are driving the bullet that fast, with SEVERAL TONS of pressure behind it,
It's a REALLY GOOD IDEA to have a 'Loose' twist rate so the copper jacket doesn't strip off the bullet!

I found the accuracy goes up with a REASONABLE weight bullet when you load at right around 3,000 FPS,
Which is plenty for about any 20" barrel 'Varmint' rifle, and it's a VERY reasonable target load.

I shoot 1/8 or 1/9 twist barrels most times,
They are VERY forgiving while out shooting 90% of the rifles on the range.
No problems with bolt bouncing off the back of the stock,
No extraction or ejection problems,
No 'Super Duper' (read: $$$) parts required to control gas impulse to the bolt...

There are tighter twist rates out there for REALLY LONG, HEAVY bullets,
But I've never seen a need with paper punching and varmint shooting to have that big, heavy bullet that REALLY needs to get spinning to stabilize.

Using the CORRECT bullet for the appication.
Hollow points (not varmint rounds) for paper punching often makes the rifle more accurate.
The reason is the open nose creates a 'Cutting' action in the air column.
(Ever notice the 'Match' rounds are usually 'Hollow Point' or 'Open Tip'?)

Something like A-Max or V-Max rounds do a REALLY good job of making it a 'One Shot' kill on varmints.
(I have a duty to NOT make the critter suffer, even if it is eating my garden, killing my chickens, digging holes in my pond levee...)

Since 95% or more of what I shoot is 55 grain FMJ (cheap) and 55 or 60 Grain V-max,
I can charge the loads to the same REASONABLE powder load,
Only make SLIGHT adjustments in zero for the switch,
(and swap ballistic cards),
And I'm off to the races between range paper targets and varmint hunting.

As I get older, I'm trying to consolidate,
This makes ONE RIFLE/One barrel do double duty with a minimum of issues.
I don't need 6 different rifles/calibers for 6 *Slightly* different applications anymore...

----

I know this flies in the face of what is printed in 'Magazines' these days.
Today, the magazines pump what the advertisers are selling,
The more they spend on advertising, the 'Better' their 'Product' becomes...

Some of it work, some doesn't, rarely does it work like the magazines say it does...

The simple truth is,
Most barrels/rifles are more accurate off the shelf than the shooter behind them...
That might not be the case for the guys on this forum, since they seem to REALLY have their collective crap together,
But think about the other 750 million people in this country that don't know ballistic tables from ingredients in microwave popcorn...

You can tell them ANYTHING and they will believe it because it's in print!
Do your own testing, reading, research.
This just gives you one old man's approach to things,
And I've been wrong many times in the past, usually daily,
So take anything you get on the internet for free,
For EXACTLY what you paid for it...
 
JeepHammer,
Thanks for sharing your wisdom. I am new to rifles and have my first AR on order. I should pick it up this week I picked up 55 grain Hornady FMJ-BT and after reading your viewpoint of the shorter bearing surface it makes me question if this is the wrong pill? When you say load light to break in the barrel, do you load lighter than published minimum loads or just light enough to cycle the action? I have loaded pistol for years but this rifle stuff is all new to me. I have IMR6064 and Hogdon H335 on hand to start out with. Any pointers you care to share would be appreciated.

Start 20-25% below the recommended 'Maximum' for break in rounds.
At 20% after break in, increase about 2% each test batch for accuracy.

When your groups start to spread noticeably,
You are probably too fast for the little BT FMJ.

If you have a chronograph, look for your best accuracy to be somewhere between 2,800 FPS and 3,000 FPS with 55 Grain rounds.

If you use a chronograph, Powders that give the same velocity/accuracy,
Watch for the High/Low and average on your 5 shot strings.
You will be more accurate CONSISTENTLY with the lowest spread between High/Low speed.

3 shot groups LIE, use 5 shot groups.
Don't worry about 'Fliers' at first, just load another round and shoot the 5 shot group.
Everyone sends a flier down range now and again when they get a new rifle!

AR barrels usually have the twist rate stamped in either the top or bottom right in front of the gas block/front sight.
If it's 1/6 or 1/7, I'd start with a slightly heavier bullet, or no boat tail... (More bearing surface area)

Don't exclude a 55 grain boat tail, it might shoot fine if it holds the rifling and doesn't strip...
Once the sharp edges of the rifling are knocked off with some use,
The tight twist barrels will hold the smaller bullets better since there isn't as much cutting sheer load when the edges gets broken in.
 
My new [and first] AR is a S&W Sport with a 1-9 twist rate barrel. I purchased 55 grain Hornady FMJBT. Our club shoots steel plates at 100 yards and I have been advised to keep the velocity under 3000 FPS. They have noticed damage to the plates with rounds above 3000 FPS.

Do the Hornady Spire Points have a longer load bearing surface than the boat tails? Are these a better choice over the boat tails? Thanks again for sharing your wisdom.
 
You *Should* be good with a 1/9 twist and 55 to 65 grain bullets, even boat tails.
It's mostly the 1/6 or 1/7 barrels that won't shoot 55 grain rounds worth spit.
They shoot the big, heavy bullets just fine, but do LOUSY with light weight bullets.

You didn't give barrel length,
Short barrels will drop about 300-350 FPS over 20" or 22" barrels, and that will help with NOT blowing holes in your steel targets.

Personally, I like spire points/soft points.
The mushroom, don't over penetrate the back stop,
Do well in larger versions of varmints,

And if you have feed ramp problems in a new rifle, before you fire enough rounds to polish up the feed ramps,
The lead scraped off the nose often works to 'Lubricate' the ramps and make things feed a little better.

Remember, first and foremost,
The .223 Rem round was designed as a VARMINT round,
A VERY ACCURATE varmint round, and medium size game round,
And when the wildcatters developed what became the .223 Rem round, all they had to work with was FMJ, Soft Point and some hollow points.

Lead nose was by far the cheapest to produce at the time,
So you can bet a lot of the guys used lead noses in the beginning, and they worked FINE or the round would have never caught on...

----

Soft lead points or hollow points for steel targets.
The soft tips and mushroom keeps you from blowing through the targets.
You get 'Dents', not 'Holes'...

Some FMJ have an air pocket in the tip, and will be less abusive to the steel target,
While some will have a full core to the tip, and those are the ones that do damage on a regular basis.

The guys are correct about keeping velocities down a little,
Velocity isn't a direct curve when combined with bullet weight,
It's exponential as velocity increases.

Above 2,800 to 3,000 FPS, you turn the copper on the jacket into a cutting 'Jet',
The same way copper plates in shape charges (Explosives) cut steel at the same velocities.

Keep the copper out of the initial impact, using a soft lead point, and the cutting effect should go away...
Depends on copper jacket design, but copper acts completely different than lead when it hits steel.
Completely different properties in the different metals.

Below about 2,800 FPS, the bullet will have to rely on brute force to blow holes in the target.
The density of the core and velocity have to work together to bust a hole in the target,
You don't get the hydraulic 'Jetting' at those compression levels.

In slower (firearm) 'Penetration' or 'Armor Piercing' rounds you find steel, tungsten, ect. in the core.
While in high velocity rounds, you often find copper and air spaces in the noses to 'Jet' through the metal it's being fired at, and it usually has an explosive charge to get that copper up above 3,000 FPS to make sure it penetrates.

With these little rifles, at reasonably short ranges,
The bullet it's self can reach well above the 2,800 to 3,000 FPS it takes to cause the copper to cut steel.
 
BumbleBug
Clark, I know you do your own gun work. I think the suggestion to set-back/rechamber would be interesting & prove your theory. I'm struggling with accuracy on my first AR also, but then again I have a "cheap" PTAC barrel

I should. I have a pencil thin barrelled AR, a medium, and a bull barrel AR.
They all shoot 1.1" groups at best.

But at the rate I am going, it will take a few years go get around to it.
 

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My main shooter is a NM barrel the throat was gone on.
Rifling still looked good to me,
So I ordered a 'Bill Wylde' chamber reamer and added about 5 threads to the barrel,
Use the chamber reamer to set the chamber back a little.

Wylde is a little tight, it likes short COAL rounds, but regularl .223 will go through it OK, just not where it shines.
I set bullets deep anyway, I use military surplus mags, and really pointed bullets sticking way out in military mags don't always get along...

Stick them down in the case a little more and run them,
They work pretty good!

SAMMI says 2.260" For COAL,
NATO says 2.550" For COAL,
Wylde says 2.445"

I was surprised when it busted sub MOA groups with 55 Grain ammo while I was function testing it,
Hadn't even got around to setting up the chronograph, spotting scope and the other crap yet.

Just a good, tight chamber...
Don't know how long it will last, but it saved an old barrel from being a tent stake.

Did the same thing on a carbine barrel (unknown origin),
went from almost 3" groups to right at 1" groups.

For this years stainless steel build, I ordered the Wylde chamber cut in the barrel.
It's being offered by Shileene, Kreiger, Armalite, ect. from the factory now.
Haven't got around to putting the parts together yet, but I expect it will shoot.

It's basically what we used to do for bolt rifles years ago,
Just add a couple of threads, move the barrel back, make a nice, tight chamber.
It didn't get a name when we did it 35 years ago on bolt rifles...
 
igolfat8 said:
Thanks for sharing your wisdom. I am new to rifles and have my first AR on order. I should pick it up this week I picked up 55 grain Hornady FMJ-BT and after reading your viewpoint of the shorter bearing surface it makes me question if this is the wrong pill? When you say load light to break in the barrel, do you load lighter than published minimum loads or just light enough to cycle the action? I have loaded pistol for years but this rifle stuff is all new to me. I have IMR6064 and Hogdon H335 on hand to start out with. Any pointers you care to share would be appreciated.

Do not load below Published Minimums, it is there for a reason, follow it.

Especially do not load 20-25% below maximum, ever.

If you load data only lists a Maximum (Alliant) reduce by 10% for Start Charge, NOT 25%.

igolfat8 said:
My new [and first] AR is a S&W Sport with a 1-9 twist rate barrel. I purchased 55 grain Hornady FMJBT. I have been advised to keep the velocity under 3000 FPS.
Barrel length is 16", Melonite coated.

Your 1-9 twist will work great with bullets from 50-70 grains. Your 55gr bullet weight is an excellent choice for your new rifle.

A max load of H-335 with 55gr bullet out of your 16 inch barrel will most likely be well below 3000fps. So, I don't think you need to worry about violating Club rules with your short barreled AR.
 
I usually don't load below published minimums with pistols,
Gas leaks in revolvers, free blow back of semi-autos can sometimes leave you with a bullet in the barrel.

Locking bolt rifles, even directly gas operated like an AR,
I've not had issues with.

'Published' minimums and maximums are arbitrary,
Subject to the source you are getting them from.

Same powder, just less of it used in 'Sub Sonic' rounds,
Well below the 10% recommended, cycle just fine and the bullet exits fairly stable, just slower.

----

What USED to be recommended for barrel break in was a MINIMUM load,
And put the bullet in the case BACKWARDS.
(David Tubb method)

The idea was, the square back end of the bullet would break off the chips, curls, burrs on the rifling better than a long, pointed nose bullet that mashed the burrs into the barrel steel.

I just never subscribed to that 'Theory'.
I'm aware the bullet will load in the case backwards,
But I worry about the pressure being deflected to the barrel by the wedged shaped bullet nose.

Wedges are a powerful force multiplier, and I had no way to gauge/test what was ACTUALLY going on with the bullet/barrel...

And the idea of forcing the solid mass of the REAR of the bullet into my freshly AND CAREFULLY cut chamber throat seemed a little 'Backwards' to me. (Pun intended)

Every competition and accuracy shooter I've met has their own way to break in a barrel, all differ slightly,
All have VERY accurate rifles, all have longer barrel life.

I suspect if they take the time to break in that barrel 'Correctly',
And they watch what ammo they pump through it,
And they CLEAN the chamber/bore regularly,

It simply lives longer than the 'Average' guy that just starts blasting away with what ever ammo is on sale at the time...

-----

I agree that 16" barrel is going to run under 3,000 FPS on it's own.
Getting a .223 to above 3,000 FPS with a 16" barrel is a challenge.
You are normally loading to maximum with a fast powder to get 3,000 FPS out of a 16" barrel.

My experience is a 300 to 350 FPS loss between 20" barrels and 16" barrels.
Depending on how touchy the gas system is set up, sometimes even more...

It depends a lot on the powder, but that's an average over time.
Some of that older, dirty Winchester powder will get a 16" barrel shooting at 3,000+ FPS,
I've found the newer, cleaner powders normally run under 3,000 FPS with 16" barrels.
 
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