...does anyone truly not believe that there must be a day when the bill becomes due...we have numerous converging problems that so far we have not suffered the consequences yet...continuing escalating debt..both national & personal, continued de-industrializing of our nation, the impossible task of paying out future entitlements(S.S., medicare..)to a huge soon-to-be-retired population group, increasingly cannibalistic business practices that encourage the enslavement of the American consumer, one day we will not be able to say any longer that our future has problems that we must confront because the future will then be the present..
Day of reckoning for America's economy...
- Thread starter aspen1964
- Start date
I've been waiting for this "day of reckoning" (sounds cool) for over 25 years. Reminds me of those guys marching with "the end is nigh" placards. Seems to me that as long as we remain the largest viable marketplace and foriegn investment continues, that "day" won't come. Whatever happened to all the fun in the world?
Josh
Josh
theres plenty of fun around..but ignoring a problem never made it go away...and the statistcs of today are much worse than 25 years ago...a lot of people today run up debt until one day they realize they can't possibly pay the bill anyomore and then it's called bankruptcy...
People alive at any given moment tend to see that moment through the prism of todays events and generally ignore history.
What you see as troubling times is nothing to what's happened in the past, and will happen in the future.
So no, there is no "day of reckoning". The closest thing we got to a day of reckoning (financially) is arguably the Stock Market Crash of 1929. But not only did we get over it, the economy went on to become the most burgioning economy of the history of the US (with some periods of decline once in a while and then going back up).
For me personally, the worst period for me was between 1979 and the the early '80's. It was in that time that my business nearly collapsed and almost bankrupted me. As a response to that, I got out of that business and started a new one in a totally different industry and am now doing extremely well. As this economy fades resulting in the decline of the business I'm now in, I'll close this one and go do something else.
Additionally, it doesn't matter one bit what the economy of a country does as long as you personally are prepared for it. A lot of people, and I do mean a LOT of people got filthy rich as a result of investments they made during and after the '29 crash. Just be prepared if you think you need to.
If you are afraid of a drastic change in the economy for the worse, then you should be doing everything you can to make sure that EVERYTHING you own is totally paid off. You should have no outstanding loans out at all (including your home), you should have limited amounts of cash in any one bank, and if you're really whacked out about it, buy Canadian gold coins and keep them in a safe at home.
I mean, c'mon, relax. Economies go up EXACTLY as often as they go down (get it?).
Carter
What you see as troubling times is nothing to what's happened in the past, and will happen in the future.
So no, there is no "day of reckoning". The closest thing we got to a day of reckoning (financially) is arguably the Stock Market Crash of 1929. But not only did we get over it, the economy went on to become the most burgioning economy of the history of the US (with some periods of decline once in a while and then going back up).
For me personally, the worst period for me was between 1979 and the the early '80's. It was in that time that my business nearly collapsed and almost bankrupted me. As a response to that, I got out of that business and started a new one in a totally different industry and am now doing extremely well. As this economy fades resulting in the decline of the business I'm now in, I'll close this one and go do something else.
Additionally, it doesn't matter one bit what the economy of a country does as long as you personally are prepared for it. A lot of people, and I do mean a LOT of people got filthy rich as a result of investments they made during and after the '29 crash. Just be prepared if you think you need to.
If you are afraid of a drastic change in the economy for the worse, then you should be doing everything you can to make sure that EVERYTHING you own is totally paid off. You should have no outstanding loans out at all (including your home), you should have limited amounts of cash in any one bank, and if you're really whacked out about it, buy Canadian gold coins and keep them in a safe at home.
I mean, c'mon, relax. Economies go up EXACTLY as often as they go down (get it?).
Carter
these people got their day of reckoning.
I have relatives that went from millionaire to almost nothing overnite, over the enron shennanigans.On the state level,there is a story in ohio thats been on the news that taxpayer money went to a coin investment scheme and it tanked.Locally, a director stole a huge amount of money from a taxpayer account that went towards the citys' utilites. Guess who is paying for their thefts while revenues have left and gone overseas? Bankruptcy laws have changed because of increased debt problems.If I dont have the money to spend, Im not going to buy it, its that simple,lest I have my own day of reckoning with a collection agency.
I dont know about any day of reckoning.Theres always going to be an up and down time in stock markets. I do know eventually, somebody will have to pay for revenues lost and overspending in one form or another.It may as well be you or I or perhaps the next generation.
I have relatives that went from millionaire to almost nothing overnite, over the enron shennanigans.On the state level,there is a story in ohio thats been on the news that taxpayer money went to a coin investment scheme and it tanked.Locally, a director stole a huge amount of money from a taxpayer account that went towards the citys' utilites. Guess who is paying for their thefts while revenues have left and gone overseas? Bankruptcy laws have changed because of increased debt problems.If I dont have the money to spend, Im not going to buy it, its that simple,lest I have my own day of reckoning with a collection agency.
I dont know about any day of reckoning.Theres always going to be an up and down time in stock markets. I do know eventually, somebody will have to pay for revenues lost and overspending in one form or another.It may as well be you or I or perhaps the next generation.
I think that you put it more succinctly than I did in that "the day of reckoning" will come more on an individual level than a national one.
That's the point I was trying to make about how even in national downturns, a lot of people still make money and a lot of people lose money.
On the flip side, a lot of people LOSE money during good times even while a lot of people make money.
Moral: Take care of your own garden and it will provide what you need.
And oh yea, buy guns to protect your garden for when your neighbors, who didn't take of their own garden, come to raid yours.
Carter
If they can make the 12 million illegals legal (and I predict they will - right after the elections) they'll start paying taxes. Deficits tend to decrease when more money starts flowing in.
We've had big deficits in the past and given the strength of this economy they've turned them around into a surplus in a few years. I'm not too worried about the debt. More money coming in and a worthless dollar in the international market and it should take care of itself given a few years.
We've had big deficits in the past and given the strength of this economy they've turned them around into a surplus in a few years. I'm not too worried about the debt. More money coming in and a worthless dollar in the international market and it should take care of itself given a few years.
CDH, you said it just fine.
The money to run things are not going to materialize off of a magical money tree.Nothing is really free,someone,somewhere had to pay for it,even the lottery.
The reckoning part comes at the realization that theres a choice, continue to pay increasing costs and ignore the problems that are getting it that way or adapt,try and change the current situation to that which benefits all.
The money to run things are not going to materialize off of a magical money tree.Nothing is really free,someone,somewhere had to pay for it,even the lottery.
The reckoning part comes at the realization that theres a choice, continue to pay increasing costs and ignore the problems that are getting it that way or adapt,try and change the current situation to that which benefits all.
The Chinese have the ability to destroy us as a Great Power in less than a year, without firing a shot. Economic collapse can do that to you, even if you keep your military. Ask the Russians. All they'd have to do would be to be willing to lose the enormous amount of money it would take to do it. If the strategic gains were worth it, I've no doubt that they would. There's always someone else that'll buy their stuff. And if they were a first-rank superpower, they'd be able to charge more for it.
The easiest way to join the Great Powers has always been to knock one of them off the perch. Worked for us... ask Spain. The really scary part is that the ball's in their court. There's little we can do to stop them, unless we radically change our economic course and reduce their ability to do it. That would require us to completely change the way our government gets and spends money, we'd all have to decide what services we want from government, and we'd all have to pay for them. Anyone think that's gonna happen? And we'd have to start making stuff here again, and selling it here, and buying it here. Actually, both of these things would be a huge gain for our economy, in my opinion, but sadly, too many toes will be stepped on to make it happen.
--Shannon
--Shannon
The easiest way to join the Great Powers has always been to knock one of them off the perch. Worked for us... ask Spain. The really scary part is that the ball's in their court. There's little we can do to stop them, unless we radically change our economic course and reduce their ability to do it. That would require us to completely change the way our government gets and spends money, we'd all have to decide what services we want from government, and we'd all have to pay for them. Anyone think that's gonna happen? And we'd have to start making stuff here again, and selling it here, and buying it here. Actually, both of these things would be a huge gain for our economy, in my opinion, but sadly, too many toes will be stepped on to make it happen.
--Shannon
--Shannon
"and the statistcs of today are much worse than 25 years ago"
I don't think so. I bought my home in 1980 and my 30-year mortgage had a 12.75% interest rate. Then the rates went higher. Let's see, go back to the OPEC oil embargo and a gallon of gas was even more expensive than today compared to the incomes of the time. I bought gas yesterday for $2.29.
Maybe the sky will fall and maybe it won't. Jobs are being added, productivity is up, and Americans might just keep on reinventing the future just like we always have.
John
I don't think so. I bought my home in 1980 and my 30-year mortgage had a 12.75% interest rate. Then the rates went higher. Let's see, go back to the OPEC oil embargo and a gallon of gas was even more expensive than today compared to the incomes of the time. I bought gas yesterday for $2.29.
Maybe the sky will fall and maybe it won't. Jobs are being added, productivity is up, and Americans might just keep on reinventing the future just like we always have.
John
johnbt...
Reminds me of the issue of oil (yeah it's a big topic) if we switch to alternate energy, that also creates new jobs for anything within that field, from the process of growing to refining and manufacturing. Reinvention is great, but the problem is when large companies stifle budding businesses or ideas (AKA: Wal Mart effect) it can cause heavy stagnation and sets up the capitalist system to become more of an oligarchic system, corporations will collude (collusion is illegal but I bet companies do it regardless.) Just look at the auto company Tucker of the 1940s/50s he was years ahead of his time, but auto companies didn't like it, and so sent him packing, took his patents and ideas and claimed it as their own or destroyed his other ideas.
Epyon
Reminds me of the issue of oil (yeah it's a big topic) if we switch to alternate energy, that also creates new jobs for anything within that field, from the process of growing to refining and manufacturing. Reinvention is great, but the problem is when large companies stifle budding businesses or ideas (AKA: Wal Mart effect) it can cause heavy stagnation and sets up the capitalist system to become more of an oligarchic system, corporations will collude (collusion is illegal but I bet companies do it regardless.) Just look at the auto company Tucker of the 1940s/50s he was years ahead of his time, but auto companies didn't like it, and so sent him packing, took his patents and ideas and claimed it as their own or destroyed his other ideas.
Epyon
..facts...the escalating national debt, personal debt, entitlemnet tidal-wave will/must crush us at a future time..unless strong, strong measures are taken & taken soon...the cost of a gallon of gas and the interest rate won't do anything to stop that...other threats are ever-increasing trade imbalance & foreign currencies being manipulated by their countries...
Scott Conklin
New member
I'm sorry but an economy of our type has never existed before, so history is of limited relevence here. Never before has any truly global economy existed and never has one been based entirely on debt. No economy before has ever had the level of unsecured consumer debt the US has carried for years. Never before has credit been available to such a degree on so many things for so long. Never before has energy driven an economy in the way it does now and never before has energy been transferred as such a commodity over such great distances.
We are in uncharted waters. Our "modern world" demanding massive credit and massive distributed energy sources is not the norm. It's a relatively recent invention and it stands on a fragile foundation of relative lack of war(certainly not peace) and and an unknown quantity of non-renewable resources.
What I see as troubling is so totally different from the past all I can do is sit back and watch. There are no legitimate guideposts and those who find comfort in the assumptions of obsolete economic, political and energy theories are in for a big surprise, I suspect.
I guess I should note that reading the above and Busterbury's thread might make my position appear more logical. We're subject to outside influences to a greater degree than ever before and we are less internally solvent than ever before. An internal event of terrorism or an external even of major war could(will) cause repercussions we simply have not seen before. Assuming past strategies and events will apply in such events seems to me to be, if not foolish then at least limited.
We are in uncharted waters. Our "modern world" demanding massive credit and massive distributed energy sources is not the norm. It's a relatively recent invention and it stands on a fragile foundation of relative lack of war(certainly not peace) and and an unknown quantity of non-renewable resources.
What I see as troubling is so totally different from the past all I can do is sit back and watch. There are no legitimate guideposts and those who find comfort in the assumptions of obsolete economic, political and energy theories are in for a big surprise, I suspect.
I guess I should note that reading the above and Busterbury's thread might make my position appear more logical. We're subject to outside influences to a greater degree than ever before and we are less internally solvent than ever before. An internal event of terrorism or an external even of major war could(will) cause repercussions we simply have not seen before. Assuming past strategies and events will apply in such events seems to me to be, if not foolish then at least limited.
Benonymous
New member
The US economy will continue to cook as long as oil is traded in US dollars. The high oil prices are good news for the US dollar. I know it doesn't make you smile at the pump but because the world economy is based on oil and oil trading, we're stuck with it.
Esquire M Busterbury
Moderator
So what happens when the people we're trading our dollars to for oil don't like the exchange rate and go euro? And I need to hear whether that's tinfoil hat conspiracy talk or a legitimate question/observation. Rumor even has it that Saddam made the switch a few months before the invasion and that Iran has it on the list of things-to-do. Could that have been a valid reason behind invasion or more crazy talk? Let me know what you think.
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I agree as a 60+ senior i have not seen anything like this. Certainly in my eyes we are on a bad path, not sure if it is the desire for high profits, cheap labor, outsourcing, rising prices, all combined the middle-class is hurting and without them freedom will cease once the rich/poor society is in place.
..what happens when the bill falls due....either the entitlements stop or cut drastically...or taxes go up and up, at what point will rising taxes no longer make it possible for the average citizen to maintain an average household, he must go down in size or go bankrupt...multiply that by tens and tens of millions...look at the percentage that the interest of the debt and the entitlement eats up the federal budget..its nothing more than an enormous ball and chain that will ultimately be too heavy to move around with...debt destroys countries just assuredly as it does indivduals...