Data of Mfr. S&W .38 CTG

B

bannonb

Inactive
Hey all:

New to the forum.

Just inherited a .38. Brief look by shooting range guy said it was in the same era as my winchester mod 1890 .22 (mf'd in 1914) but no real research or lookup was done.

I'm interested in the date of mfr, not so much the value, but if you know about it, cool. Any help is appreciated.

.38 S&W Special CTG revolver 5" barrel
Feb 6, 06 is last patent number on barrel
5 screw
fixed rear site, half-moon front site
Bakelite (or black plastic?) handle
Open cylinder shows a 4 digit number (2388).
Serial # B 155697 on bottom of barrel
--Ser# on rear of cylinder has no "B"
Serial number worn away on butt

The finish of this is so worn that it's essentially brown now.

If any of you have a book that shows the details on that serial number I would appreciate it. From reading around, I think it's a Military and Police model but I am open to any comments.

Thanks,

BannonB
 
Not really sure about the "B" but if the serial number on the back on the cylinder is also 155697 then that makes it a .38 Military & Police Model of 1905, 1st Change.
SN's ran from 73251 in 1906 to 146899 in 1909.
Of course, this assumes the barrel and cylinder are original to the frame.

Jim
 
It's not a .38 Special CTG, it's a revolver chambered for the .38 Special CarTridGe. :)
CTG isn't the model. Your post title is a caliber.
Denis
 
And a way that a lot of Spanish S&W copies were clearly marked to make them appear to the unitiated that they were really S&W products.

Seems like the tactic is still working today... :o


A pic would help us sort it out though... it might be a S&W, it might be a copy.


Willie

.
 
To LaytonJ1

Jim:

To the uninitiated the serial number I have (155xxx) is higher than the range you showed for the model you mention.

SN's ran from 73251 in 1906 to 146899 in 1909.​

Since the 155xxx is higher than 146xxx, does that suggest that the .38 M&P is later than 1909?

Just trying to get a fix on the date. Still if it's 1910 or so, that's interesting to me.

A couple of pics. Dark gun difficult to photograph with iPhone...
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75690397/38M&P-3.JPG
...cylinder open profile
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75690397/38M&P-2.JPG
...showing the barrel serial number. Fuzzy, but the point is that there is a "B" preceding the serial number.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75690397/38M&P-1.JPG
...cylinder closed profile
 
Since the 155xxx is higher than 146xxx, does that suggest that the .38 M&P is later than 1909?
Click to expand...
My mistake.
As 1st and 2nd Change models overlapped, It's a 3rd Change. SN's ran from 146900 in 1909 to 241703 in 1915.
So, 1910 is very possible.

The "B" is not part of the SN.


Jim
 
Not really sure about the "B"
Click to expand...

And a way that a lot of Spanish S&W copies were clearly marked to make them appear to the unitiated that they were really S&W products.
Click to expand...

The "B" is not part of the SN.
Click to expand...

The "B" signifies BLUED finish and the absence of a "B" is for nickel or perhaps a special order finish such as silver plate. This B bottom barrel stamp also is a detail that a Spanish copy would not have, even if it was good. It was something used specifically by S&W during their manufacturing process and I've never saw a "B" stamp on the underneath of a barrel on any other revolver than a S&W.

The SN being removed from the butt is troublesome. While its likely we have the SN pegged, the cylinder and barrel could have came from the same donor gun, while the frame on this gun was different. Remember that the frame is the legal place for the SN and the other places where the SN is located are related to the manufacture of the revolver.

The plastic handles you mention would not be original to the gun unless they are like the pair in the bottom photo. It would have grips like these originally (K frame pre war concave (dished) service grips).

Here is a pair of 1905 1st change M&P 38 special target guns. They are scarce this early. These are identifiable from 2nd changes (since SNs overlap) because they lack the 2 pin later extractor type. Most target M&Ps you see are 1905 4th changes with the later patridge type of front sight. These are the same period, although a little before your SN top 106XXX bottom 115XXX. These are the grips that most likely would have been on your gun. If the gun has a round butt, then it would have grips like gun below these two 38 M&P targets. The bottom gun in the top photo has the lightest trigger of any revolver I ever owned. The bottom gun is a M&P 4th change SN 567XXX.

GEDC0076-3.jpg

GEDC0048-2.jpg
 
Those look like the proper early hard rubber grips. They seem to be in very good condition.
Click to expand...

Woops - I didn't see the OP posted pics later in the thread. I agree with Mike that they are most likely original.
 
for the benefit of the OP, I would like to repeat my standard early M&P warning notes.
  • Although all .38M&P's have rebounding hammers, models prior to the Model of 1905 4th Change lack a positive hammer block. When the trigger is fully forward, hammer movement is normally blocked by a hump on the top of the rebound slide; however, if the gun is dropped hard enough on the hammer, the impact may shear off the hammer pivot pin and allow the firing pin to move forwards and potentially strike a live round. :eek: This gun should ALWAYS be carried "five up" with an empty chamber under the hammer. Like an old Colt SAA, you should NOT load all six chambers unless you intend to empty all of them right away!
  • Keep +P ammo far, far away from this gun! Early .38M&Ps lack heat-treated cylinders and may come apart with sustained use of +P.
  • Very early .38 M&Ps like this one have some substantial differences in the lockwork compared to later models. Although all M&Ps are fairly stout, be aware that if you break it, finding parts may be difficult. Furthermore, early non-heat-treated guns generally have soft cylinders and tend to develop lockup problems if subjected to frequent double-action rapid-fire. This gun may make an occasional fun shooter, but if you're looking for something that will see hard use (such as IDPA), I would recommend a post-WWII gun.
 
Thanks everyone for the fine conversation.

This handgun is a piece of history (pre-WWI anyway) and a new addition to my arsenal.

CarguyChris suggests that the M&P has soft cylinders. I have noticed that when loaded I can move the gun back and forward and hear the rounds moving loosely. Not sure if this is bad, but it's a little strange.

I don't know what to look for as far as the hammer lock mechanism, so I'm not sure. I think the rough estimate of 1910 (3rd change) is what I was looking for.

Bannonb
 
You should be able to move ANY clean revolver backwards & forwards and hear at least SOME cartridge movement. It's not bad & it's not strange, totally normal. I'd be concerned if there WASN'T movement.

The pre-1920s guns had no real heat treating, which doesn't leave them with what I'd call "soft" cylinders, just less-hard than those that followed when heat treating began to be introduced.
In general, pre-heat-treat guns were perfectly safe to use with the ammunition pressures & types that were in use at the time the guns were, it's just not advisable to try to push them with higher modern pressures.
There is concern over ratchet wear, bolt-stop notch wear, and hand wear, if you get too rambunctious with fast DA shooting, or hard-cocking in SA mode.

There should be somebody along shortly to point out that today's +P is really only yesterday's standard velocity in the .38 Special caliber, but regardless I'd keep pressures down with mild "standard" vel loads if I were going to shoot that gun much.

It's a hammer BLOCK, not a hammer LOCK, and you won't find it without looking inside the gun, which may not be a good idea for you.
Denis
 
CarguyChris suggests that the M&P has soft cylinders. I have noticed that when loaded I can move the gun back and forward and hear the rounds moving loosely. Not sure if this is bad, but it's a little strange.
Click to expand...
This is normal. There should be a good deal of clearance between the recoil shield (the round part of the frame behind the cylinder) and the cartridges other than the one lined up with the barrel.

Regarding lockup, download the "Revolver Checkout" PDF file in the stickied thread at the top of the "Revolver" subforum, and pay particular attention to checkout items (3c) thru (3g). The cylinder stop (item 3h) on old S&Ws is not usually a problem; the cylinder is usually much softer than the stop, so the stop usually chews up the cylinder notches long before it suffers significant wear!

FWIW S&W revolvers will often shoot remarkably well with what seems like an alarming amount of rotational play in the cylinder. However, if the gun fails the other checks on the list, it may need a gunsmith's attention before being fired.
I don't know what to look for as far as the hammer lock mechanism, so I'm not sure.
Click to expand...
Are you talking about the hammer block? If it's a 3rd Change, the gun doesn't have one. The block debuted in 1915 (IIRC) with the 4th Change.
 
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