DAO v. Condition 1 re: concealed carry

F

FScott

New member
Hello -

I am in the process of obtaining my CCW permit here in NC (several of my fellow attorneys here are going through the process together - late hours downtown, etc... an interesting group, but that's for a different thread).

Based on my usual attire (business casual) I am somewhat limited regarding choices of firearms. I own a FI Industries (imported Star) Model D .380, which is the only real option (the Browning HP and Taurus 92 are just too difficult for me to conceal). However, I am a little uncomfortable with the .380 caliber stopping power and with carrying it in condition 1, especially since I can't find a lot of information on this model. It's been reliable at the range through about 100 rounds, but I am relatively sure the design is such that it doesn't have a firing pin safety so condition 2 is not really an option and I don't see the point of trying to rack the slide and draw in an urban confrontation. It's also a little heavy.

Consequently I have been thinking about something like a Taurus PT-111, which has the advantage of being light weight, DAO, reasonable price and a more powerful caliber.

Is there any other semi that I'm overlooking in the under $500 category?

Am I making too much of the single action/DAO issue for concealed carry?

Your thoughts are appreciated!
 
You're overlooking DA/SA models. I like those for carry personally, although plenty of folks around here hate them with a passion. But I like the idea of not having a safety to trip me up in a crisis, combined with a very quick SA follow up. I don't have any trouble shooting DA accurately with any of my DA/SAs, so I don't feel that I'm sacrificing any accuracy in the kind of extreme CQB situations that are most likely to arise when I'm carrying (carjacking, mugging, etc).
 
Good Point

I hadn't really considered that option (although that is a little embarassing since my Taurus PT-92 has DA/SA which I am comfortable using).

However, I haven't seen much discussion on smaller 9mm's with DA/SA. Any model suggestions?
 
P239 or HK P7

Simpathize. I'm a lawyer too and don't have too many options on carrying a piece. This is especially so givent the hotter weather in Miami.

Anyway, I carry the Sig 232. Although I feel uncomfortable b/c of the smallish caliber (.380) it is generally considered the finest .380 out there. DA/SA never bothers me and makes me feel very safe. If you want to stay w/Sig but go to 9mm, consider the 239. A bit heavier than the 232 but roughly the same size.

A good alternative might be the HK P7 in either the PSP or M8 variants, available in 9mm. Run a search on them and you will find nearly universal acclaim. The P7 employs a squeeze cocking mechanism in the grip. Until properly squeezed, the piece is perfectly safe. Supposedly, they are of exceptionally high quality and matching prices too.

Good luck,

Ralph:cool:
 
Take a look at the Kahr P9 or P40. They are very thin and concealeable. The Kahrs also have a nice trigger. I tried a Taurus PT140 and was very disappointed. The trigger was very heavy and rough.
 
I think that the weapon you already have is just fine. You can check the weapon yourself to see if it has an inertia type firing pin. Simpley take a pencil and push on the back end of the firing pin until it is flush with the slide just as if the hammer was resting against it. If you do not see the firing pin protruding from the breach face then it is of the inertia type which means you can carry it hammer down. If the hammer pushes the pin out through the breach block then it would be unsafe to carry it hammer down. I believe your weapon should be of the safer inertia type. If the firing pin spring is in good shape it will hold the firing pin back if you drop it and the gun will not fire. Many years ago they found that to make a gun fire you had to drop it out of a second story window and it had to hit the pavement exactly on the muzzle to make it fire. Too much is made of the new passive firing pin safeties that often make some models of hand guns have less than desirable trigger pulls.

People who are familiar with single action autos like yours automatically flip the saftey off when they draw and fire the weapon. I prefer this type of weapon because your chances of a first round hit are astronomically higher than with the double , single action. Trying to master two different trigger pulls under stress is the height of absolute absurdity. Far better to use either an all single action or double action only than a double , single action pistol.

You may carry a single action hammer down or at full cock which ever makes you feel more comfortable. I carry mine at full cock and have every confidence that I can hit what I am shooting at lightning quick with the first shot at ranges 5 times as far as compared to trying to fight a hard double aciton pull at close range and then still probably missing what I am shooting at.

Just remember all this baloney about calibers and killing power is just exaclty that baloney. Shot placement and the metal state of your advesary are what often determine what happens in a gun fight. Have you ever watched what happened to the body guards that were shot with the lowly .22 rimfire in the attempted President Reagan assassination. These large powerful men hit the pavement as if they were struck by lightening. Why? Because they were calm and not expecting to get shot. If they had been violently enraged it would not of mattered what caliber they were shot with. They probably would have not even flinched after being shot unless they would have been struck in the head or spine. I also base this advice on my hunting career when shooting large big game.

So forget caliber and carry something that is comfortable and if it is comfortable you will probably always have it with you and be wearing it. A large calbier handgun does you no good at all if it is left on the car seat or sitting home in the drawer. W.R.
 
Have you ever considered a good snub nosed revolver in .357/38?
That is what I have been carrying for years.
Jim
 
Checked the firing pin

when flush it does not protrude from the breech. Admittedly, the .380 is the weapon I learned to shoot with and it is comfortable to shoot.

My gun club has a few Kahr's and Sig's on hand, I'll have to check them out for comparison sake (no HKs).

I'm embarassed to admit that I've actually never fired a revolver, learned to shoot with the semi and have just stuck with it.

Thanks for all the info!
 
People who are familiar with single action autos like yours automatically flip the saftey off when they draw and fire the weapon. I prefer this type of weapon because your chances of a first round hit are astronomically higher than with the double , single action.
Click to expand...

Sorry Wild..I have to disagree with you on this one. With proper training a person armed with a DA pistol can be just as fast and effective as a person armed with a SA type pistol. It doesn't matter how fast you get the shot off, just that you hit what you are aiming at. :)

FScott,

I would really try to get to a range and test fire a Taurus PT 111 prior to purchasing one. The samples that I have seen have not impressed me, and as previously mentioned, the trigger pulls were terrible.

You might want to also consider either a Glock Mod 26 in 9mm or Glock 27 in .40. They make excellent carry weapons and hold 10rds with the 26 and 9 with the 27. The extremely short grip makes concealing easy and won't "print" as much as a larger weapon would.

As aerod mentioned, a revolver is also an excellent choice. The airweight and titanium models are extremely light and can be carried easily in a pocket if you just don't have the time to slip on a belt holster, or where the sight of an empty belt holster not be exactly in good taste. Ex...if you are in a court room or important client meeting and you remove your jacket.

Good Luck on finding your carry weapon.

Red
 
Remember, it's not the size of your bullet that's important, it's where you put it. A hit with a .380 is immensely better than a miss with a .45.

Also, the overwhelming majority of defensive gun uses do not involve ANY shots being fired.

The gun I'm thinking about for carry will either be a .380 or .32. Eventually, when I can afford something like one of the compact Kimbers, I'll spring for one of those in .45

Get what's comfortable for you, for your situation, and be able to hit what you shoot at!


Be safe, shoot straight!
M@
 
I prefer this type of weapon because your chances of a first round hit are astronomically higher than with the double , single action. Trying to master two different trigger pulls under stress is the height of absolute absurdity.
Click to expand...

You keep saying that, but I have yet to meet a single competent DA/SA auto guy or DA revolver guy who agrees with you.
 
Sorry Wild..I have to disagree with you on this one. With proper training a person armed with a DA pistol can be just as fast and effective as a person armed with a SA type pistol. It doesn't matter how fast you get the shot off, just that you hit what you are aiming at.
Click to expand...

That is precisely my point good fellow. The smaller a pistol is the more difficult it is to shoot well. When dealing with double action autos in the .380, 32, and 25 size they are extremely difficult to control when attempting a double action shot. I have seen people (myself included) draw a .25 auto single action and fire it as fast as they could pull the trigger and put their shots in the kill zone on a silloutte target at 25 yards. On the exact same day and same time we cheated and moved the target to only 7 yards and tried to hit it with double action .25's and .32's. The real world results were mostly misses at only 7 yards or hits on the outer edge of the target. Lets face reality most people who carry guns for self defense do not practice much with them and the last thing in the world they need to be plagued with is a gun that is far more difficult to hit with becuase of a hard double action pull. W.R.
 
You keep saying that, but I have yet to meet a single competent DA/SA auto guy or DA revolver guy who agrees with you
Click to expand...

No disrespect intended but I post my writings and results based on the average use by the average person. I think it is totally unrealistic to compare the skill of the super experts to that of ordinary people who may only fire their guns several times a year and sometimes not even once a year. If you are a shooting fanatic and spend tons of money and practice incessantly two or three times a week fantastic results are definately in the realm of possibility. Lets look at the real world of everyday people because this who I intend my advice to benefit. W..R.
 
Fscott, I would highly recommend the Makarov in 9X18 for a concealed carry piece. It is one of the most under rated firearms on the market right now. The prices are starting to go up because the supply is starting to dry up but you can still get one for around $200 at least right now. Go to www.makarovpistol.com and you will be able to get all your questions answered. I carry a Wilson .45 when the weather is cool and a makarov in the warmer weather. I have put 800 rounds through my Mak and it has never failed me. Makarov's are inherently reliable, very accurate, the ammo is cheap and they are very concealable. Leather is available at the website above and most of the top names make leather for it. The reason the Makarov gets snubbed by most is the fact that the price is cheap compared to others. The reason is that the economies in the former Eastern Block Nations is in the toilet and the U.S. Importers can pick them up for $50 a piece because $50 U.S. in Bulgaria is about 3 months salary, and then sell them here for $200. Give it a look, it DA/SA and easy to take care of. Good luck.
 
I'm assuming (something I hate to do) that you're looking for a pocket pistol as opposed to carrying IWB. I too would be a little leary carrying condition 1 in a pocket weapon without some sort of holster to protect the safety, though I feel completely comfortable carrying condition 1 IWB style. If pocket carry is what your after, I'd recommend any of the Kahr's or the Taurus Millenium's.

As far as the trigger on the Millenium is concerned, years ago when they first came out I shot one of the first ones to hit town that belonged to a buddy of mine. I'ld have to say the trigger didn't seem all *that* bad to me. Seemed like a typical double action trigger like you would find on a S&W revolver. I was impressed with it actually, but back then I wasn't interested in a 9mm and never purchased one. I don't remember my buddy ever having trouble with it either.

The recent models that have that "politically correct" intregal keylock system may have mucked up the works, so I would give one a try at the range first and see how you like it. Your the one that's going to live with the choice, we can only give suggestions. :)

Just my .02,

Rick
 
I would speak up for a hammerless DAO snubnosed revolver, like the Smith Centennial models 342, 640, 642, 940 or any other numbers you can find. Smallest, least protrusions, nothing to remember except pull thru on the trigger. Decent cartridges, too.
 
Practice and related issues

I currently go to the range about once every two weeks or so. Definitely not what you'd call an expert (still working on technique and accuracy, although more experienced shooters tell me I'm a pretty good shot given my long layoff from shooting). Of course that is under controlled conditions, working towards a comfort level to carry me through a stressful situation. That places me squarely in the "tweener" category, the only real solution seemingly is to work with some different actions to see what I'm able to handle reliably.

Given my profession and attire, my carry weapon will have to spend some time in the pocket, especially in the summer months (typically khakis and a polo or button down type shirt, always tucked in!). I definitely will use a pocket holster, I've tried carrying the .380 in my pocket around the house and it is not comfortable, nor does it inspire confidence for an accurate presentation.

Suggestions are very much appreciated, there seems to be a dizzying array of options on the market right now, and the thoughts of experienced users is invaluable.
 
Different angle

Well, first you would have to get accustomed to Condition One carry; but one option you might consider is a good holster and belt for the Hi-Power.

The Milt Sparks Versa-Max 2 will let you carry a Hi-Power in business casual with your shirt tucked in. At least it let's me carry one that way with few problems (6'2", 200lbs, 36" waist).

Alternatively, you could have one made for the Star .380 and it should be even easier to carry.

The two main problems you'll have with the tuckable mode will be the carry gun "ironing" creases in the shirt that look odd. My solution to this has been to wear knit Polo shirts that are less prone to creasing, or to wear lightly starched cotton shirts that wrinkle all over the moment you sit down anyway.

The other problem will be that getting the rig set up right in the mornings will be a big chore at first until you get used to it. You'll definitely have to start buying certain types of shirts in order to get the most out of it.

If you'll do a search on "Versa-Max 2" or "Sparks VM2", you should come up with quite a bit of information on the holster. As a bonus, its cheaper than a new gun.
 
concealed carry handgun

My top choices would be:

.380 caliber

1. Sig 232. It's large and comfortable enough to shoot regularly. If you carry the .380 as a primary, shot placement matters more, so you'll need practice. The 232 is nice enough that you'll use it at the range.

2. NAA Guardian .380. You won't shoot it often, but it's tiny--smaller by a hair than the old OMC/AMT .380 back-ups. A good everyday, whereever you are gun. Kinda heavy though. I've carried an OMC (pre AMT) in a pager/phone holster daily for a number of years. You never leave home without it because you always have your pager/phone. Just be sure to remove it before you pass through the metal detectors at the court house, if your county's heightened security. The Guardian .380 design is only 1/2 year old, so there may still be bugs that need to be worked out.

9mm

1. Kahr K9 Elite. Small package. About the same size as the Sig 232 and PPK, but it's made to shoot 9mm +P. Same ammo capacity as the 232 and PPK. I'd go with the steel frame despite its weight. The polymer frame model may still have bugs in it. About the same price range as a 232 and PPK, and 9mm ammo as cheap or cheaper than .380 ammo.

2. P7 M8. Larger package than the others, but concealeable in a IWB holster, under a jacket. Safe design. Incredibly smooth and easy to shoot. Engineering is astounding. Drawbacks are price and unique squeezecocker takes getting used to. A very distinctive weapon.

I'd buy the NAA as an always gun AND the Kahr K9 as the most of the time gun. You'll never leave the NAA in the car or at home, even if you're in shorts and a t-shirt. It'll be with you always. The Kahr will easily conceal under a light covering garment like a patterned t-shirt. Under a jacket, or during the winter, the P7 is hard to beat.
 
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