Which do you prefer? Why? I am very, very new to guns. I want to learn as much as I can. I can't give technical reasons, but I'm drawn to guns with a hammer. Oh, and I am looking for techincal reasons (i.e. one may shoot faster than the other, one may not jam as much as another, one may be safer than another). I am looking to learn, so please be patient, descripitive, and remember that I don't know any of the terminology; In fact, the ONLY thing I know about guns are how to load them and shoot them. I know it's stupid to have guns and not even know how to disassemble and clean them, but folks are crazy these days. I felt it was best to go ahead and get a few handguns while I had the money, then learn the logistics of them later. I will gladly accept any tutoring you're willing to offer me. I love to learn new things, especially when I'm passionate about the subject...AND I LOVE GUNS!
DA, SA, DA/SA?
- Thread starter Church
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Crow Hunter
New member
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigger_(firearms)
Everyone is different. You will have to make your own mind up about what is best for you and only experience will tell you that.
Get some good competent training.
Welcome to the obsession.
Everyone is different. You will have to make your own mind up about what is best for you and only experience will tell you that.
Get some good competent training.
Welcome to the obsession.
DAO double action only, is safer in a pocket. It also has a consistent trigger pull and no need for a manual safety. This is good for carry because you don't have to worry about a safety and the trigger pull isn't going to change "mid-fight". But the trigger isn't going to be impressive. You have to train for the slightly handicapping trigger, which is really no big deal
Single Action has the best trigger. Its going to be light, short, and accurate. You're going to have an external safety. Best trigger you can get, additional safety. For the range or hunting its sweet, but some people dislike it for carry, especially based on their method/gear. You have to train for the additional step of sweeping a safety, which is really no big deal.
Traditional double action's biggest flaw is the transition after the first shot. Don't fool yourself into thinking you're going to cock the pistol under stress, its not gonna happen. This is kind of a compromise, you generally don't have or need an external safety (although some models have them if you prefer). For carry with a DA, you get the "safety" of a hard trigger pull, followed up by lighter easier trigger pulls, although not as good as a single action. If you can train past the transition, you get a little bit of both worlds. You have to train for the long-hard to short-easy transition, which is really no big deal
Single Action has the best trigger. Its going to be light, short, and accurate. You're going to have an external safety. Best trigger you can get, additional safety. For the range or hunting its sweet, but some people dislike it for carry, especially based on their method/gear. You have to train for the additional step of sweeping a safety, which is really no big deal.
Traditional double action's biggest flaw is the transition after the first shot. Don't fool yourself into thinking you're going to cock the pistol under stress, its not gonna happen. This is kind of a compromise, you generally don't have or need an external safety (although some models have them if you prefer). For carry with a DA, you get the "safety" of a hard trigger pull, followed up by lighter easier trigger pulls, although not as good as a single action. If you can train past the transition, you get a little bit of both worlds. You have to train for the long-hard to short-easy transition, which is really no big deal
this is strictly subjective but:
I tend to lean toward DA/SA combination.
I find that the DA only pistols like most of the compacts
tend to have a very long, and often heavy trigger pull (in my opinion).
The LC9 for example, its a good pistol but I don't like that
even after the first shot, its still DA.
Strictly speaking in a real world situation it probably wouldn't make
that big of a difference as you would rarely be in the position to
fire multiple times in self defense, one shot tends to end things.
The range is another matter, after 20 or 30 rounds of DA only
its a fatigue issue for me. The tip of my index finger really starts
to notice the draw of the DA, compared to my DA/SA pistols that
after you send the first round down range its 2-3 lbs vs 7-11 lbs
EVERY SHOT!
Again, its subjective. I went through all the compact and semi compact
rental pistols at my local range in 9mm looking for a model that was DA/SA
and found NONE.
I tend to lean toward DA/SA combination.
I find that the DA only pistols like most of the compacts
tend to have a very long, and often heavy trigger pull (in my opinion).
The LC9 for example, its a good pistol but I don't like that
even after the first shot, its still DA.
Strictly speaking in a real world situation it probably wouldn't make
that big of a difference as you would rarely be in the position to
fire multiple times in self defense, one shot tends to end things.
The range is another matter, after 20 or 30 rounds of DA only
its a fatigue issue for me. The tip of my index finger really starts
to notice the draw of the DA, compared to my DA/SA pistols that
after you send the first round down range its 2-3 lbs vs 7-11 lbs
EVERY SHOT!
Again, its subjective. I went through all the compact and semi compact
rental pistols at my local range in 9mm looking for a model that was DA/SA
and found NONE.
Your best bet is to get something that is DAO, and take a little time to learn to shoot it. Do that, and you wont have any troubles shooting anything.
DA triggers take a little getting used to, and seem awkward at first, but once you start to get used to them, and get some muscle tone going, they are really very easy to shoot well with. Once you get the DA down, everything else is pretty much a breeze.
DA triggers take a little getting used to, and seem awkward at first, but once you start to get used to them, and get some muscle tone going, they are really very easy to shoot well with. Once you get the DA down, everything else is pretty much a breeze.
aarondhgraham
New member
Everyone has their own preference,,,
One is not inherently better than the other,,,
Or they would not all exist.
Now my personal preference is DA/SA,,,
I like having the option of thumbing that hammer back.
I train with a DA/SA pistol,,,
I do not thumb back the hammer for the first shot,,,
I practice draw and fire with that first long heavy trigger pull.
It's only a disadvantage if you are not aware of and ready for it.
The perfect pistol for me is a DA/SA with a de-cocker.
Aarond
.
One is not inherently better than the other,,,
Or they would not all exist.
Now my personal preference is DA/SA,,,
I like having the option of thumbing that hammer back.
I train with a DA/SA pistol,,,
I do not thumb back the hammer for the first shot,,,
I practice draw and fire with that first long heavy trigger pull.
It's only a disadvantage if you are not aware of and ready for it.
The perfect pistol for me is a DA/SA with a de-cocker.
Aarond
.
Okay, so double action is actually double action/single action? Double action only...well, that's obvious a little too obvious, haha. I have two DAO (hooray for new terms) pistols now. I haven't gotten the chance to fire them at a range, though. I use to live in the country--where I would be able to fire them off in the yard--but I moved to the city to help my mother through her battle with breast cancer. I've had these pistols for at least two months and haven't been able to fire them...that's killing me! I'm very, very, VERY drawn to Berettas.
Crow Hunter
New member
Go to your local sporting goods store and get some snap caps in your caliber.
Practice dryfiring/loading & unloading using the snap caps.
Be safe, only point it in a safe direction, clear all live ammo out of the room.
Once you get to actually firing them for real, the snap caps will be good for dummy drills.
aarondhgraham
New member
Hello Church,,,
You are not wrong to say that but it's not traditional,,,
DA/SA is not commonly used when speaking of a revolver,,,
DA/SA is commonly used when speaking of a semi-automatic pistol.
The term Single Action means the trigger only does one thing (it performs a single action),,,
It releases an already cocked hammer.
The term Double Action means the trigger does two things (it performs double actions),,,
It can cock the hammer and release it in one trigger pull.
In all cases a single action trigger pull is shorter in travel and lighter in effort than a double action trigger pull.
Single Action revolvers are the traditional cowboy gun:
You thumb back the hammer and then the trigger does the single action of releasing the hammer.
Double Action revolvers are the traditional police style revolvers:
Pulling the trigger does the two actions of cocking the hammer and releasing it to fire the cartridge.
Here is what I was referring to at the top of this post.
Double Action revolvers that have exposed hammers could be called DA/SA,,,
Although hardly anyone ever uses that term when speaking of a revolver,,,
You can always choose to cock the hammer back manually,,,
Then pulling the trigger does one single action,,,
It releases the hammer.
DAO revolvers are ones that have a covered hammer that you can not cock manually,,,
There are also some revolvers that have the hammer spur cut away preventing you from manually cocking the hammer,,,
And there were some Double Action pistols that were initially designed or modified so that you were prevented from cocking the hammer manually.
Single Action semi-automatics are like the WW-II American 1911 pistol:
You had to cock the hammer manually by racking the slide (which also chambered the first round),,,
Or thumbing back the hammer (if there was already a live round in the chamber).
After you fire a SA semi-auto the action chambers the next round and cocks the hammer for the next shot,,,
In the SA semi-auto pistol the first and all subsequent trigger pulls are single action.
Double Action semi-auto pistols are a bit more complex to explain fully:
If the pistol has an exposed hammer it is probably a DA/SA.
That means that for the first shot you can manually cock the hammer and shoot in single action,,,
Or you may simply pull the trigger which will cock the hammer and release it,,,
All subsequent shots are then in single action mode,,,
Because the slide then cocks the hammer.
If the pistol does not have an exposed hammer it is a DAO,,,
Or striker fired (Glocks) which in practice is DAO
A DAO pistol cocks the action and fires the cartridge in one trigger pull:
The main difference between DAO and DA/SA is that a DAO does not cock the hammer for the next shot,,,
Each time you pull the trigger on a DAO pistol it cocks the action, fires the pistol, and chambers the next cartridge for you.
I hope this makes sense and helps you.
Aarond
.
You are not wrong to say that but it's not traditional,,,
DA/SA is not commonly used when speaking of a revolver,,,
DA/SA is commonly used when speaking of a semi-automatic pistol.
The term Single Action means the trigger only does one thing (it performs a single action),,,
It releases an already cocked hammer.
The term Double Action means the trigger does two things (it performs double actions),,,
It can cock the hammer and release it in one trigger pull.
In all cases a single action trigger pull is shorter in travel and lighter in effort than a double action trigger pull.
Single Action revolvers are the traditional cowboy gun:
You thumb back the hammer and then the trigger does the single action of releasing the hammer.
Double Action revolvers are the traditional police style revolvers:
Pulling the trigger does the two actions of cocking the hammer and releasing it to fire the cartridge.
Here is what I was referring to at the top of this post.
Double Action revolvers that have exposed hammers could be called DA/SA,,,
Although hardly anyone ever uses that term when speaking of a revolver,,,
You can always choose to cock the hammer back manually,,,
Then pulling the trigger does one single action,,,
It releases the hammer.
DAO revolvers are ones that have a covered hammer that you can not cock manually,,,
There are also some revolvers that have the hammer spur cut away preventing you from manually cocking the hammer,,,
And there were some Double Action pistols that were initially designed or modified so that you were prevented from cocking the hammer manually.
Single Action semi-automatics are like the WW-II American 1911 pistol:
You had to cock the hammer manually by racking the slide (which also chambered the first round),,,
Or thumbing back the hammer (if there was already a live round in the chamber).
After you fire a SA semi-auto the action chambers the next round and cocks the hammer for the next shot,,,
In the SA semi-auto pistol the first and all subsequent trigger pulls are single action.
Double Action semi-auto pistols are a bit more complex to explain fully:
If the pistol has an exposed hammer it is probably a DA/SA.
That means that for the first shot you can manually cock the hammer and shoot in single action,,,
Or you may simply pull the trigger which will cock the hammer and release it,,,
All subsequent shots are then in single action mode,,,
Because the slide then cocks the hammer.
If the pistol does not have an exposed hammer it is a DAO,,,
Or striker fired (Glocks) which in practice is DAO
A DAO pistol cocks the action and fires the cartridge in one trigger pull:
The main difference between DAO and DA/SA is that a DAO does not cock the hammer for the next shot,,,
Each time you pull the trigger on a DAO pistol it cocks the action, fires the pistol, and chambers the next cartridge for you.
I hope this makes sense and helps you.
Aarond
.
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The trigger is only part of the equation. All triggers should be smooth, continuous and have a crisp break.
Just as a matter of hitting targets the single action trigger is much easier to use and most shooters are more accurate with them.
I'm not a fan of double action triggers in semis. I plink, shoot targets and small game, so being able to shoot the gun without racking the slid isn't important to me.
I do like double action revolvers. A lot of that has to do with the ergonomics of handling the gun. But a bit has to do with the trigger being very smooth and crisp on my S&W.
Just as a matter of hitting targets the single action trigger is much easier to use and most shooters are more accurate with them.
I'm not a fan of double action triggers in semis. I plink, shoot targets and small game, so being able to shoot the gun without racking the slid isn't important to me.
I do like double action revolvers. A lot of that has to do with the ergonomics of handling the gun. But a bit has to do with the trigger being very smooth and crisp on my S&W.
carguychris
New member
Re: DA/SA automatics...
DA/SA automatics use different decocker and/or safety setups, which are another thing to consider.
The oldest and arguably most traditional system is a decocker/safety, a lever which both lowers the hammer for a DA first shot and disables the gun from firing, but does not automatically return to the "Fire" position when released. The Walther PPK and P1/P.38 use this system, along with most metal-frame S&W centerfire automatics and most newer Berettas. Most but not all of these guns can be safely carried with the decocker/safety disengaged, a popular method of carry that eliminates the chances that the shooter will forget to "switch on" the gun at the worst possible moment.
However, the owner's manual or literature about the pistol should be consulted to learn if this carry method is safe.
A less common system is a true safety- a lever that disables the gun from firing but does not lower the hammer. The hammer must be manually lowered by pulling the trigger with your thumb on the hammer spur- NOT a task to be taken lightly! Most CZs and many older Berettas use this system. The advantage is that the pistol is more easily carried in SA/safety-on mode, or "cocked and locked", for a light SA first shot. The disadvantage is that when decocking is done, it must be done with caution.
The last system is a true decocker; it lowers the hammer but does NOT disable the gun from firing, and springs back to the starting position when released, unlike a decocker/safety. This system is most commonly identified with SIG Sauer, although a number of other makes offer it as an option, albeit usually an uncommon one. The advantage of this system is that there's no possibility of forgetting to "switch on" the gun, but SA fire is still possible.
Most, but not all, DAO automatics are a version of an existing DA/SA design with the safety and/or decocking lever omitted for simpler operation. The advantage is no worrying about decocking or forgetting the "on" switch; the obvious disadvantage is the total inability to use a light, short, and crisp SA trigger.
DA/SA automatics use different decocker and/or safety setups, which are another thing to consider.
The oldest and arguably most traditional system is a decocker/safety, a lever which both lowers the hammer for a DA first shot and disables the gun from firing, but does not automatically return to the "Fire" position when released. The Walther PPK and P1/P.38 use this system, along with most metal-frame S&W centerfire automatics and most newer Berettas. Most but not all of these guns can be safely carried with the decocker/safety disengaged, a popular method of carry that eliminates the chances that the shooter will forget to "switch on" the gun at the worst possible moment.
However, the owner's manual or literature about the pistol should be consulted to learn if this carry method is safe.A less common system is a true safety- a lever that disables the gun from firing but does not lower the hammer. The hammer must be manually lowered by pulling the trigger with your thumb on the hammer spur- NOT a task to be taken lightly! Most CZs and many older Berettas use this system. The advantage is that the pistol is more easily carried in SA/safety-on mode, or "cocked and locked", for a light SA first shot. The disadvantage is that when decocking is done, it must be done with caution.
The last system is a true decocker; it lowers the hammer but does NOT disable the gun from firing, and springs back to the starting position when released, unlike a decocker/safety. This system is most commonly identified with SIG Sauer, although a number of other makes offer it as an option, albeit usually an uncommon one. The advantage of this system is that there's no possibility of forgetting to "switch on" the gun, but SA fire is still possible.
Most, but not all, DAO automatics are a version of an existing DA/SA design with the safety and/or decocking lever omitted for simpler operation. The advantage is no worrying about decocking or forgetting the "on" switch; the obvious disadvantage is the total inability to use a light, short, and crisp SA trigger.
Super Sneaky Steve
New member
I'm more accurate with my GP100 DA. Dunno why, everyone is different I guess.
As stated, eveyrone is different.
I dislike strikers because they have no safety. They put various "devices" trying to emulate a safety and stop an ND (neglgnat dicharge) as the trigger pull is in the 3.5 to 6 lb range. Triggers tend to be poor (all of them either offer or people make improved triggers, which means they are also lighter and even less safe)
(note MP bein the exception, it does have an optional safety though its too small in my opinion).
DA/SA may or may not have a true safety. One of the popular setups is to have a de-coccker that also acts as a safety. You have to flip it UP to fire. Its an odd thing movement wise (but dictated by using it the same lever as a de-cocker).
The other take is to count on the heavy DA pull as the safety (and never carry it in SA mode). The second shot is SA which is claimed to be a drawback.
My take is that its only a drawback for the untrained or uninterested (LEO who have to carry but shooting is not an interest).
I will disagree about the comment about cocking a DA gun.
I have done that on a number of occasions when the bump in the night has me very concerned (two person household, I check my wife is in bed and after that, no one has any business in my house).
I come from priamliy a revovler backbournd though I have carried a 1911 a fair amount.
I was thown into a practial police course one time with no training. I shot all but the last stage SA. I had shot a lot of revovler and was veyr comfoale with that mode.
Keeping in mind its all about shot placement. I did exceptinal well and inside all the timelines and competed each stage. So yes it can be done.
The DA/SA is a natural progression from shooting revolvers (DA revolvers). I practice the DA first shot and then SA follow up shots and it works fine.
HK offers a 1911 type safety seperte from their decocker (button in HK case). Works fine if you want an extra level of assuracne though I am fine with a heavy DA pull.
If you go that way, you do need to decide what your normal carry is and stick with it (Safety on and count on taking it off, or off and not use it except for unusual situations). Otherwise you can want to shoot and find it on.
To me, strikers are always in SA mode and then its not just trigger discipline, its you have to have a holster and you better never ever get the trigger hooked on something.
I dislike strikers because they have no safety. They put various "devices" trying to emulate a safety and stop an ND (neglgnat dicharge) as the trigger pull is in the 3.5 to 6 lb range. Triggers tend to be poor (all of them either offer or people make improved triggers, which means they are also lighter and even less safe)
(note MP bein the exception, it does have an optional safety though its too small in my opinion).
DA/SA may or may not have a true safety. One of the popular setups is to have a de-coccker that also acts as a safety. You have to flip it UP to fire. Its an odd thing movement wise (but dictated by using it the same lever as a de-cocker).
The other take is to count on the heavy DA pull as the safety (and never carry it in SA mode). The second shot is SA which is claimed to be a drawback.
My take is that its only a drawback for the untrained or uninterested (LEO who have to carry but shooting is not an interest).
I will disagree about the comment about cocking a DA gun.
I have done that on a number of occasions when the bump in the night has me very concerned (two person household, I check my wife is in bed and after that, no one has any business in my house).
I come from priamliy a revovler backbournd though I have carried a 1911 a fair amount.
I was thown into a practial police course one time with no training. I shot all but the last stage SA. I had shot a lot of revovler and was veyr comfoale with that mode.
Keeping in mind its all about shot placement. I did exceptinal well and inside all the timelines and competed each stage. So yes it can be done.
The DA/SA is a natural progression from shooting revolvers (DA revolvers). I practice the DA first shot and then SA follow up shots and it works fine.
HK offers a 1911 type safety seperte from their decocker (button in HK case). Works fine if you want an extra level of assuracne though I am fine with a heavy DA pull.
If you go that way, you do need to decide what your normal carry is and stick with it (Safety on and count on taking it off, or off and not use it except for unusual situations). Otherwise you can want to shoot and find it on.
To me, strikers are always in SA mode and then its not just trigger discipline, its you have to have a holster and you better never ever get the trigger hooked on something.
A lot - a WHOLE lot - depends on what you are used to. Since you are just starting out, you will grow accustomed to what you use a lot.
Using myself as an example, I grew up with revolvers and owned only revolvers for a couple of decades of adulthood. It therefore took me quite a while to get used to a thumb safety; I frequently forgot it at first, but forgot it less often as time went on and familiarity increased. I still use a Glock for every day carry partly for that reason - it is still not impossible for me to forget a thumb safety at the range, so it is probably more possible under stress. On the other hand, a heavy double action trigger pull doesn't bother me as long as it is reasonable; nor does the difference between DA and SA - I learned both with revolvers.
In the same way, I am amused by the people who think that safeties that flip up to fire are "wrong" because I am accustomed to them. Other people think the grip angle of Glocks are "wrong" but it feels fine to me because I have shot mine a lot.
Decide what you like and practice it and you will be fine. Better yet, own different systems and get used to all of them so that you can use them at need.
Using myself as an example, I grew up with revolvers and owned only revolvers for a couple of decades of adulthood. It therefore took me quite a while to get used to a thumb safety; I frequently forgot it at first, but forgot it less often as time went on and familiarity increased. I still use a Glock for every day carry partly for that reason - it is still not impossible for me to forget a thumb safety at the range, so it is probably more possible under stress. On the other hand, a heavy double action trigger pull doesn't bother me as long as it is reasonable; nor does the difference between DA and SA - I learned both with revolvers.
In the same way, I am amused by the people who think that safeties that flip up to fire are "wrong" because I am accustomed to them. Other people think the grip angle of Glocks are "wrong" but it feels fine to me because I have shot mine a lot.
Decide what you like and practice it and you will be fine. Better yet, own different systems and get used to all of them so that you can use them at need.
Sparks1957
New member
I like DA/SA guns with decockers, myself. Everyone needs to find out what they like and shoot best... fortunately there are lots of choices out there and there is a design that will best fit any shooter.