cylinder slop, how much is too much

NickolasPopoff

New member
forgive my ignorance here but i figure it is always safer to ask, than to blow myself up.

I have a couple of revolvers, my newest a colt python 357 magnum, a tarus .454 raging bull and a ruger 44 super redhawk.

my question is this, how much should i be able to move the cylinder with the hammer down? it seems like my 454 and 44 magnum have a bit less than 1 mm of movement(very scientific eyeballing here) while my 357 has about half of that. I am just curious how much is acceptable? when will i know i have too much play?
anyway, thank you for you input

Nick
 
There will always be a little play in a revolver cylinder.
As long as it;
(a) aligns the chamber with the bore
(b) the bolt locks into the cylinder notch before the hammer falls,
(c) the cylinder can't be rotated out of alignment with the bolt engaged

You should be fine.

The "bolt" is the small piece that sticks up through the bottom of the frame's cylinder opening and engages into the cylinder stop notches. Because it should not bind against a notch it will, by defninition, be slightly undersized to the notch. This will allow some play.

I just re-checked Jerry Kuhnhausen's S&W shop manual and it does not provide any kind of specification for this movement. It is more important that the bolt engage & release properly and not bind in the cylinder notch. Provided that each chamber properly aligns with the barrel the slight movement of your cylinder shouldn't be a problem.
 
It just dawned on me that I made an assumption that you were talking about rotational "slop".

If you are talking fore & aft movement of the cylinder, also known as "end shake" that's another matter entirely! For S&W's, Kuhnhausen says .001" clearance which means you should barely see any fore/aft movement. If in doubt, have a gunsmith check it. It's easily corrected using bearing washers to shim the difference.
 
If you mean when the action is uncocked, hammer down and everything is at rest, how much movement there is is not an issue.

If you mean how much movement is OK when the trigger is pulled and the hammer is in the firing position this differs from brand to brand.

The Colt is different than any other brand of gun, in that it has Colt's famous "bank vault" lock up system.
In the Colt system, when the trigger is pulled, the cylinder is forced into a tightly locked position where there is NO cylinder movement.

This puts the cylinder chamber into perfect alignment with the barrel and insures the bullet will enter the barrel perfectly centered.
This means that the bullet isn't distorted by hitting the bore off center, and this is one reason why Pythons are famous for accuracy.

The problem with the old Colt actions is, everything depends on the action being in PERFECT adjustment.
If anything gets out of adjustment, accuracy degrades badly.

All other brands of guns, like the S&W, Ruger, and Taurus use an entirely different design.

In these guns the cylinder is ALLOWED to be loose at the moment of firing.
This allows the cylinder to align itself with the bore.
The advantage of this system is, the gun's action is much easier to build, and it can be slightly out of proper adjustment and still work well.

The down side of this is, the bullet actually does the job of aligning the chamber with the bore, and the bullet never enters the bore perfectly centered.
This slight misalignment means the bullet gets distorted and accuracy isn't as good as it could be.

The reason most revolvers use this system is, it's much cheaper and easier to build this type of action.
The old Colt action as used on the Python must be factory fitted and adjusted by a Master fitter, and this requires a considerable amount of expensive hand labor.

This hand labor is one reason why the Python is so expensive.
It amounts to having a custom built, hand fitted action, while the others are simply assembled with little fitting required.

So, all revolvers will have some cylinder looseness when the action is at rest.

All revolvers will have some cylinder looseness when the hammer is cocked.

The old Colt action alone will be tightly and immovably locked at the moment of firing.

S&W, Ruger, Taurus, and most other revolvers will have some looseness at the moment of firing.

How MUCH looseness at the moment of ignition is not something that has an actual spec.
The crucial measurement is done with a bore-chamber alignment tool known as a "range" rod.

This is a tool that slips down the barrel and is a snug fit in the bore.
The alignment between the bore and the chamber is checked by whether the range rod will smoothly enter the chambers.


How much is TOO much?
On the Colt ANY amount of looseness at ignition is too much. This means something is wrong, and the gun should be returned to the factory.

In the other brands, how much is too much is subjective.
If there seems to be a lot of looseness, compare the revolver to another revolver of the same make.

Also inspect the revolver for battering of the cylinder slots and the cylinder locking bolt.
In most cases, excessive looseness at the moment of ignition indicates a worn or abused gun.
 
Cylinder End Shake

Most of the manufactures have and allow .002 on two chamber which is for and aft movement. If it is more than that it should be looked at by a good pistolsmith. The fix is either rolling out the the end shake or replacing the gas ring depending on the manufacture. I do not subscribe to shimms be that is just me. But you have to be able to check for the problem properly frist to insure you have a problem
 
Many years ago I read an article which stated that when they first came up with the revolving cylinder pistolas, the used the tapered "forcing cone" in the barrel to compensate for the fact that when they mass produced them and used interchangeable parts (ala Henry Ford and Samuel Colt) they had to find a way to overcome the alignment problems between the cylinder and the barrel due to manufacturing complications. This allowed the projectile to "slide" into the barrel and proceed along it's merry way more or less accurately.

Super accurate custom revolvers use "line bored" cylinders which are bored from the barrel end (in other words, hand fitted, ala the Python) to insure that they are perfectly aligned with the barrel in the same way that racing engines are "line bored" to insure perfect alignment of the crankshaft rod journals.

And you know what? As accurate as most of these guys are, it is clear that most of them know what they are doing...contrary to what we sometimes see in these forums.
 
Kudos, Dfariswheel, for a good post that explains it.

There's no doubt that some bright boy, by applying some skull sweat to the problem, could probably come up with a better, more modern system to rotate the barrel and align the bore. The real question is would such a system be (1)capable of mass production, (2)economically feasible and (3)have an action that is as smooth as a good Colt or S&W?

In the meantime, my S&W M649 can shoot accurately enough up to 25 yards. "Enough" meaning that I could put all 5 shots into a 2.5" circle with careful aim (this is a snubbie we're speaking of after all). I don't think I'd pay another $300 for being able to make that a 1/2" group.
 
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