Curious about Webley .455

[cjwils]

I tried this discussion in another forum with very little response, so let's see if The Firing Line gets a better result.

Lately, I am feeling an urge to buy a Webley 455 revolver, even though I have never fired one. I got to touch one about 30 years ago. For those of you who have fired one, what can you tell me about the joy of shooting one? Can you compare the action, trigger pull, accuracy, etc. to something like a Colt New Service or S&W of the same era? What about reliability and durability?

I would not buy a Webley with a cylinder shaved for 45 ACP, so please don't go there.

 

[rock185]

I fired one owned by a good friend many years ago. After he passed away, I purchased the old gun from his estate. Mine is a 1918 MK VI. It still functions well, so I guess it's durable. It has a heavy but smooth DA trigger pull. SA is heavy but clean. I don't have any Colts or S&Ws of the same vintage to compare it to, but later Colts and S&Ws I've owned had better triggers. To me it is an interesting piece of history, and something I enjoy taking to the range once in a while. Accuracy is certainly adequate at 15 yards, but not equal to Colts and S&Ws I've owned.

My Webley is shaved for .45 ACP, so I won't go there

 

[GaryED50]

Its seems no standard was used in the shaving of the cylinders. sometimes it too much or too little

Gary

 

[Bart Noir]

I'm not going there, but I would like to warn rock185 about firing normal GI hardball rounds in that "shaved" Webley.

Each and every shot will be essentially equal to a .455 proof round, if shooting the hardball. Webleys can blow up from that sort of treatment.

Now, if reloading to .455 pressures or using downloaded .45 AutoRim, you can avoid this. But what about the previous owner? Is the "shaved" Webley close to self-disassembly? My point is that we don't know.

I'd love to have a Mark VI which has not been modified. But they are rare and pricey.

Bart Noir

 

[44 AMP]

I would not buy a Webley with a cylinder shaved for 45 ACP, so please don't go there.

Be prepared for a long wait, though its always possible you might get lucky, but there are very few "unshaved" Webley Vi's out there. The reason is that when the supply of .455 ammo dried up, the major distributors had the gun cut so they could shoot something available and unshaved ones are scarce.

Also be aware that the amount of cylinder shaved off varies. I have a 1917 Mk VI, and it's shaved cylinder was apparently the minimum possible. .45 AR brass will NOT work. Only one brand (S&W) of half moon clips will work. NO full moon clip I have found will work, they are all too thick. And after I got some, I tested it, and that gun will still work with .455 Webley ammo, though it is on the ragged edge of excess headspace.

My gun is in excellent condition, missing the lanyard loop and cut cylinder being the only detraction from fully original, and the blue is still in the 90%+ range.

Compared to S&W and Colts of the era, the trigger pull is long and HEAVY in DA and heavier than the US guns in SA, though it is smooth and crisp.

The guns cut for .45ACP BRASS were never meant to be shot with .45ACP AMMO. This fact was never well communicated. IF you load .45ACP BRASS to Webley load levels, they work great. As already noted, GI ball .45ACP is a proof pressure load for the Webley and should NEVER be fired. The Mk VI is a large revolver but despite the look it is not a very strong one.

The sights are small (everything in that era was) and of course, are regulated for the British ammo, which is a 260gr slug at about 700fps.

They are way cool guns, conjuring images of the Great War and also the adventures of Alan Quartermain. A word about the operation, the action needs to be opened completely and smartly. Not slammed, but not slow, because there is a point where the extractor will snap back into the cylinder and if done too slowly the cases will only be lifted and not ejected and can if loose drop back into the cylinder UNDERNEATH the extractor tying up the gun and needing 3+ hands to clear.

Were I in the market, I would get a shaved one if available, as having one even if not 100% in original shape is better than not having one, as I see it.

Most of them will work with .45AR brass (with WEBLEY level loads!!!). Mine won't but its a bit of an oddball. My gun is more than "service grade" accurate, with the right load in SA its fun but DA needs the proverbial "three men and a boy" to pull the trigger.

Reliable and durable is not a question that needs to be asked for any service revolver, they all are, unless the individual gun is bad.

I would rate the trigger less than the period Colt or S&W, especially the DA pull. fit and workmanship are as good, finish is difficult to say as they were never high luster guns to begin with and after a century even the guns that were shiny when new are a bit less so.

I find the recoil to be mild, but that's just me.

also just remembered something you might want to know, the way to tell at a glance if the cylinder has been shaved or not. Look at the numbers around the rear edge of the cylinder. Look at anything with a "bottom", 2, 3,5,6,8 if the bottom of the number is in any way "clipped" or flattened or right on the edge of the cylinder, it has been cut.
Hope this helps

 

[THEWELSHM]

I own a 1915 Colt New Service in .455 webley, single action is sweet, double action ooohhh boy, a great hand work out..I reload for it too as ammo, is as rare as rocking horse teeth..

thewelshm

 

[TruthTellers]

I too had a fascination with the Webley revolvers a couple years ago and I had no interest in the .45's because so many of them were shaved to shoot .45 ACP and thus if they could fire .45 ACP, that drove prices up because .45 ACP is common ammo that's easy to get. I had no interest in a military gun that had been modified from its original state, so no .45 Webley for me.

And as 44 AMP said, you're going to be waiting a long time to find one in .455.

IMO, if you want a top break Webley get it in .38/200 (AKA .38 S&W). None of those Webley's/Enfields were modified and because .38 S&W is not a common ammo the prices are very reasonable, but I feel that because they haven't been modified they will hold their value much better than all the shaved Webley's that will inevitably be fired one too many times with .45 ACP and become wall hangers.

 

[T. O'Heir]

The .45 ACP doesn't use the same diameter bullet anyway. Webleys have been bubba'd to use the ACP because there was no .455 ammo available. And then you get into the variations of the ammo.
The issue is that a Webley was not designed nor made for great accuracy. And its ammo was a lead bullet. Vs the jacketed bullet in the ACP.
In any case, a W.W. II vintage, .455, Webley Mk VI can run about a grand on Gunbroker. More money on Guns International.
Midway shows 1 brand of ammo. Fiocchi Mk II with a 262 grain cast bullet at $37.99 per 50. Pretty much the same at Graf's, but they show 2 brands a buck apart in price, but still $37/38 per 50.
"...38/200 (AKA .38 S&W)..." Sort of. Difference is the bullet weight. The Brits, being bankrupt after W.W. I, had no money for anything. So they tried to increase the 'power' of the .38 S&W by loading it with a 200 grain cast bullet.

 

[RickB]

I have a Webley Mk. 1, and have never fired it in the 30+ years I've owned it.
My grandmother used it as a night stand gun, loaded with WWII-era Canadian ammo, but that's not the appropriate round, even though it fits in the chambers.

I also have a partial Webley R.I.C., not complete enough to shoot, but .45 GAP fits perfectly in the cylinder; again, absolutely not the appropriate round.

Both guns were intended for black powder, so, no modern ammo should be fired in either one.

The action of the Mk. 1 is tight, the trigger is not heavy, and with appropriate ammo, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot it.
I might try to handload with powders used by cowboys as black powder equivalents, but it's not high on my to-do list.

 

[44 AMP]

"Bubba" did not get his hands on every Webley, and I'd venture to say he got his hands on about none of them. The work done on them was done by actual gunsmiths, and at the time, made them MORE valuable.

Today's idea that a "shaved" Webley is worth less is because of people who desire unmodified pieces of history as collectibles over guns they can actually shoot.

Previous generations of buyers (not primarily milsurp collectors) valued a gun they could get ammo for over one they couldn't. To sell the Webleys when the surplus .455 ammo dried up (and US companies weren't making any) the guns were converted. It made economic sense at the time. Today, the market is different. Always remember that, at the time, Webleys, Lugers, Mausers, Springfields, and the rest were NOT rare valuable pieces of history, they were cheap surplus guns.

Early .455 ammo used lead bullets. After the Hague Convention, the ammo became jacketed bullets. FMJ.

There are no "WW II vintage" Mk VI Webleys. Many served during WWII, as the substitute standard. Production basically ended after WW I with a few guns made until the mid 1920s. The .455 Webley Mk VI are all PRE-WWII vintage.

The British did not try to "up the stopping power" by using a cast bullet. ALL the military .38/200 ammo is FMJ. (Hague convention, not the Geneva convention as most people think, again...)

Civilian ammo did have lead bullets, but none of the military ammo did.

I have no idea if you can still get any, but some years back I got some .455 Ammo made by Hornady. 20rnd box and the cost then was about a dollar a round.

If I remember right (without looking it up) the first Webley officially "rated" for use with smokeless powder was the MK IV. NEVER shoot any smokeless powder ammo in the earlier Marks. Smokeless powder loads, even at the proper pressure levels stress the gun differently than black powder loads and so should not be used.

 

[cjwils]

"Today's idea that a "shaved" Webley is worth less is because of people who desire unmodified pieces of history as collectibles over guns they can actually shoot."

I think the primary reason (at least to me) that a shaved Webley is worth less is that there is a high risk that it has been over-stressed by high pressure ammo at some time in the past.

I don't know that the early Webleys were designed for black powder. My understanding from reading elsewhere is that they were designed for cordite. I understand that cordite is relatively slow to reach full pressure, but I don't know how that compares to black powder or smokeless powder. Sherlock Holmes, speaking in the era when Webleys were new, sometimes mentioned the smell of cordite when a gun had been fired. Surely, Sherlock knew.

 

[44 AMP]

I'm sure Holmes knew, but that doesn't mean Arthur Conan Doyle did.

The .455 Revolver Mk I (this is the cartridge designation and has nothing to do with the MK #s of the pistols) was adopted by the British Army in 1892. It was loaded with black powder.

In 1894, the power was changed to the (then new) Cordite.

In 1897 Cordite was replaced with smokeless powder, the case was shortened slightly and this round designated .455 Revolver Mk II.

This round is what we know today as the .455 Webley.

Many writers use the phrase "the smell of cordite" because they like the sound of it. And, yes, cordite does have a distinctive smell not like anything else. However, writers often talk about the smell of cordite when the ammo being fired would not have been loaded with cordite, and in some cases could not have been loaded with cordite.

Many writers don't get the details correct. Cordite .455 Webley ammo could not be in a story set before 1894, and since it was only loaded with cordite until 1897, it could be in a story set after that date, if it is plausible that the ammo came from the earlier time.

 

[TruthTellers]

"Bubba" did not get his hands on every Webley, and I'd venture to say he got his hands on about none of them. The work done on them was done by actual gunsmiths, and at the time, made them MORE valuable.

Today's idea that a "shaved" Webley is worth less is because of people who desire unmodified pieces of history as collectibles over guns they can actually shoot.

Previous generations of buyers (not primarily milsurp collectors) valued a gun they could get ammo for over one they couldn't. To sell the Webleys when the surplus .455 ammo dried up (and US companies weren't making any) the guns were converted. It made economic sense at the time. Today, the market is different. Always remember that, at the time, Webleys, Lugers, Mausers, Springfields, and the rest were NOT rare valuable pieces of history, they were cheap surplus guns.

It's not so much that I would rather have the unmodified Webley's for collectors value (that is an added perk of them tho) it's that I don't like the idea of the guns being able to shoot ammo that they weren't made for and while they may not be unsafe in certain models, they are going to shorten the life of these guns.

I would have no issue spending a couple hours loading up 50 rounds of .455, but I'm not like most people. Then again, IDK how easy it was to get .455 reloading dies and brass decades ago.

If I remember right (without looking it up) the first Webley officially "rated" for use with smokeless powder was the MK IV. NEVER shoot any smokeless powder ammo in the earlier Marks. Smokeless powder loads, even at the proper pressure levels stress the gun differently than black powder loads and so should not be used.

Another reason the .38 Webleys/Enfields would be better for today's shooter: all of them were made for smokeless.

IDK, but it may be best for shaved .45 Webley owners to load their own ammo using a black powder substitute. I mean, they're pretty much going to have to load their own ammo as nobody is making .45 ACP ammo loaded down to be safely shot in the shaved Webley's anyway.

 

[44 AMP]

I don't like the idea of the guns being able to shoot ammo that they weren't made for and while they may not be unsafe in certain models, they are going to shorten the life of these guns.

I understand your apprehension, but I do not share it to the same degree.

The safety and the longevity of any conversion depends on many factors, nearly all of them specific to the individual gun and the work done on it. If you don't have any experience or education about them, it is prudent to take a "hands off" blanket approach.

I'm not trying to change your mind, but there are things I think you should consider that you may not be aware of.

First of all, remember that you are looking at antique, long out of production guns, and, specific to .455 Webleys the very newest of them is over 90 years old and the overwhelming majority considerably older. They've "been to the wars" both actual war and the use or abuse civilian owners have put them through for a hundred years, or more. And survived.

With all the old guns, there is always a slight chance that their next shot could be their last. Detailed inspection for visible flaws is vital, which is why I consider buying a gun "sight unseen" (and that includes a few pictures on the internet) a risk.

Proof loads do stress the gun. However, it is stress the gun is supposed to take and survive. They are deliberately well above the intended operating pressure and the gun taking them and surviving UNDAMAGED "proves" that the gun will take standard pressure loads safely.

What you're looking at with the .455 and firing .45acp loads is not a "it will blow up" thing, but more of an "it might, eventually, crack" kind of thing. And the extra stress over the correct working pressure is un-necessary, and undesired. Since there is a chance that "eventually" could be the very next shot, we say "Don't DO THAT!"

Another point to remember is that the old guns also sometimes fail when fired with exactly the "proper" ammunition. They're old. Things get worn, metal fatigues, it happens.

If you are going to shoot guns century+ old guns, it is best to know what you are doing, and only do what is appropriate. There are many do's and don'ts that one needs to know to be both safe, and functional.

as a poor analogy, if all you have driven is a 2019 Prius you're not going to be able to jump behind the wheel of a 1928 Oldsmobile and cruise without some issues. Pass your driving test in a car with an automatic transmission, power steering, power anti-lock brakes etc, and you need further training before you can drive an 18-wheeler with a multi-speed split axle manual transmission, or a formula 1 race car...

Another reason the .38 Webleys/Enfields would be better for today's shooter: all of them were made for smokeless.

Yep. Though I would caution against any of them for today's "shooter" if that shooter intends to shoot a lot.

IDK, but it may be best for shaved .45 Webley owners to load their own ammo using a black powder substitute. I mean, they're pretty much going to have to load their own ammo as nobody is making .45 ACP ammo loaded down to be safely shot in the shaved Webley's anyway.

The Mk V and Mk VI .455s were made for smokeless powder. Black powder or a substitute is not needed for those guns. Earlier mark guns are another matter.

handloading for the converted Webley .455s is the only way you get proper ammo. And, you need to know what the right things to do are, and how to do them.

Like the 1928 Olds I mentioned before, its not the same as things today and you need to know different things, specific to the item in use. For that old car, you not only need to know how to drive a non-syncromesh manual transmission, you also need to know where to get or make LEADED gasoline.

If you just pull up to the pump and run today's gas in it, you WILL need to do repair work on your engine before very long.

Shooting these guns, and doing it safely and without damaging them requires different things than what is common today. Knowing that is the first step. Learning the specifics that apply to the gun you're wanting to shoot is the next step.

another example (just general)
That 9mm +p (or +p+ ) that your Glock gobbles like candy can trash your 1918 Erfurt Luger. Things like that are things you need to know if you're going to shoot the old guns. The info is out there, and can be learned, and lots of people with experience are willing to pass their wisdom along.

Some of it will actually be right!

 

[Mike Irwin]

"In 1897 Cordite was replaced with smokeless powder, the case was shortened slightly and this round designated .455 Revolver Mk II.

Cordite .455 Webley ammo could not be in a story set before 1894, and since it was only loaded with cordite until 1897, it could be in a story set after that date, if it is plausible that the ammo came from the earlier time."

Sorry, but that is not correct.

Cordite, which is a smokeless, nitrocellulose/nitroglycerine double-base propellant, was used to load .455 revolver Mk II cartridges, as well .455 Auto cartridges and .380-200 cartridges for MANY years.

.455 Revolver cartridges were loaded with cordite through the 1930s, when the first "modern" nitrocellulose propellants were introduced; the two propellants were then loaded concurrently through the end of World War II.

.455 Revolver cartridges loaded with nitrocellulose powder OTHER than cordite bear a "z" designation on the headstamp.

 

[44 AMP]

Sorry, but that is not correct.

Thank you for the correction. My information came from Cartridges of the World, and again, it seems mr Barnes was wrong.

apologies for passing along incorrect information.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Barnes generally knew his stuff.

It was later editors who fell down on the job.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[rock185]

Bart Noir, Thank you, I am well aware.

FWIW, reference the oft cited .455" diameter and .451/.452", etc. bullets being too small. That may not be the case. I'd seen it suggested that actual cylinder throat and barrel groove diameter might be closer to .450". I drove a soft lead slug through the cylinder of my MK VI. It came out exactly .450". I drove a slug through the bore. I don't have the math to figure groove diameter due to the 7-groove bore. But the largest diameter I could measure was .450".

 

[44 AMP]

Barnes generally knew his stuff.

I still have the "new revised 3rd edition". The factual stuff I could easily check always seemed pretty spot on so I figured the rest ought to be about the same. His comments, on the other hand, are pretty opinionated, and today some are a hoot!

I had heard there were some inaccuracies in the book, but until you pointed out the .455 one I had never been shown any. Now I wonder what else (that I can't easily check) is also "off"...

I've never actually measured my Webley Mk VI cylinder or bore. Generally I shoot .451/.452 commercial cast 200 gr swc and while not to the sights they do well enough for casual plinking just for fun.

 

[silvermane_1]

Be prepared for a long wait, though its always possible you might get lucky, but there are very few "unshaved" Webley Vi's out there. The reason is that when the supply of .455 ammo dried up, the major distributors had the gun cut so they could shoot something available and unshaved ones are scarce.

Also be aware that the amount of cylinder shaved off varies. I have a 1917 Mk VI, and it's shaved cylinder was apparently the minimum possible. .45 AR brass will NOT work. Only one brand (S&W) of half moon clips will work. NO full moon clip I have found will work, they are all too thick. And after I got some, I tested it, and that gun will still work with .455 Webley ammo, though it is on the ragged edge of excess headspace.

My gun is in excellent condition, missing the lanyard loop and cut cylinder being the only detraction from fully original, and the blue is still in the 90%+ range.

Compared to S&W and Colts of the era, the trigger pull is long and HEAVY in DA and heavier than the US guns in SA, though it is smooth and crisp.

The guns cut for .45ACP BRASS were never meant to be shot with .45ACP AMMO. This fact was never well communicated. IF you load .45ACP BRASS to Webley load levels, they work great. As already noted, GI ball .45ACP is a proof pressure load for the Webley and should NEVER be fired. The Mk VI is a large revolver but despite the look it is not a very strong one.

The sights are small (everything in that era was) and of course, are regulated for the British ammo, which is a 260gr slug at about 700fps.

They are way cool guns, conjuring images of the Great War and also the adventures of Alan Quartermain. A word about the operation, the action needs to be opened completely and smartly. Not slammed, but not slow, because there is a point where the extractor will snap back into the cylinder and if done too slowly the cases will only be lifted and not ejected and can if loose drop back into the cylinder UNDERNEATH the extractor tying up the gun and needing 3+ hands to clear.

Were I in the market, I would get a shaved one if available, as having one even if not 100% in original shape is better than not having one, as I see it.

Most of them will work with .45AR brass (with WEBLEY level loads!!!). Mine won't but its a bit of an oddball. My gun is more than "service grade" accurate, with the right load in SA its fun but DA needs the proverbial "three men and a boy" to pull the trigger.

Reliable and durable is not a question that needs to be asked for any service revolver, they all are, unless the individual gun is bad.

I would rate the trigger less than the period Colt or S&W, especially the DA pull. fit and workmanship are as good, finish is difficult to say as they were never high luster guns to begin with and after a century even the guns that were shiny when new are a bit less so.

I find the recoil to be mild, but that's just me.

also just remembered something you might want to know, the way to tell at a glance if the cylinder has been shaved or not. Look at the numbers around the rear edge of the cylinder. Look at anything with a "bottom", 2, 3,5,6,8 if the bottom of the number is in any way "clipped" or flattened or right on the edge of the cylinder, it has been cut.
Hope this helps

^And Indiana Jones, he carried a Webley in Last Crusade and Crystal Skull there 44AMP.