Crossbows....

R

Rob Pincus

New member
I spent the first half of the day at a Crossbow seminar in South Carolina. 90% of the people at the event were SC DNR employess. I was shocked at the prejudice AGAINST this weapon. The prejudice was only rivaled by the ignorance.

Most of them had this picture of the Xbow as the ultimate silent weapon or something.. like a quiet rifle. The perfect poahers tool and a real "devil's weapon".

I was sorta under the same impression about 8 years ago when I bought a top of the line Barnett Xbow. I fired it a few times, found out that it had about the same ballistics as a compound bow, yet was much slower.. and it has either hung on a wall or sat in a closet 99.99% of the time after the first two months I owned it.. it looks pretty darn cool, but it is just a simple bow, when it comes down to it.

Apparently the confusion comes from a combination of myth and misunderstanding. Some pope outlawed them in Europe centuries ago, so they have a mysticlaly evil nature. On top of that, The box they com ein says that they are strung to over twice the usual hunting wieght of a powerful compound bow, which makes people think they are ungodly powerful. Add to that the fact that they are quiet and yet they look like a rifle.. and WHAMMO, that is apparently where all the problems come from.

These guys were really AGAINST the use of teh Xbow as a hunting weapon. (note that half of SC canuse the Xbow for 4 months, while inthe other portion of the state it can only be used by handicapped people). even the DNR personnel from the area where Xbows are legal were very ignorant of their operation and effectiveness.

So, given that the BOW portion of the Xbow is half the size of the compound BOW, the end reuslt of teh high pooundage is about the same. thus, the arrow of a given wiehgt will fly with about the same energy from a Xbow ans a Comp Bow.... furthermore, the MAX effective range for a Xbow is right around 45-50 yards, under PERFECT conditions.

So, in addition to wanting to clear up any misconceptions that people may have had, I also wanted to ask the following:

1. anyone have any practical (hunting) experience with a Crossbow??

2. Any hunters not understand that the more weapons available to hunters, the more hunters and hunting there will be.. hence the better off the industry and the traditions will be ??



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-Essayons
 
SC DNR employees are notorious for enforcing the parts of the laws that they like.

Some folks have been known to be decent with a crossbow, but the hammer of Thor, it ain't. If you were young and inexperienced, you might shoot a deer six times or more before they drop...not that I would know, of course. I would advise being either prepared to give them time to bleed out, or bringing a knife or small pistol for the coup de grace.
 
That is really funny...
In the medeval era when the crossbow was king - it was only a novelty... few actually used them.
The rate of fire was much lower than that of an archer with a long bow - and power - while a little greater - didn't offset that fact. Crossbows saw the most use during sieges, with static lines of attack and defence.
Any other times - it was pretty useless...
Soldiers prefered the bow - as did hunters.

Crossbows remain not much more than a curiosity. If one has a handicapp or injury and unable to draw and fire a bow - then the crossbow becomes an option.

Funny - look at the movies - micro bows are the rage! "Mad Max" - wrist worn crossbows... In "First Knight" handgun sized crossbows that have the power of .44 magnums for OSS!

Like the Wolf, it is just a poor misunderstood creature who doesn't really live up to it's myth...

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RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
 
i think my pro line point blank will out perform most cross bows at most any rang in most any condition, and my bow is not top of the lin any more. a cross bow is a novelty item unless as mentioned above the shooter is handicaped and neds the ability to mechanicaly hold the tool at draw..pat
 
Now don't laugh Folks, but pistol sized cross bows are Outlawed in Aus. 'cause they can be fired ONE HANDED !

As if you can't do that with a Full Sized X Bow !!!

Arrggghhh....... The stupidity of the Politician knows NO bounds ! :(

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"The Gun from Down Under !"
 
I can’t speak for anti-crossbow people who don’t archery hunt, but I do have some insight as to why many archery hunters don’t like crossbows.

I used to hunt with a crossbow. It was a PSE Foxfire. I killed a couple of deer, an antelope and an elk with it. I got the bow because my left shoulder was all screwed up and my buddies all hunt with bows. I went though hell with those guys. They constantly taunted me about not using a real bow and how inferior crossbows are compared to “real” bows. Since that time, I have had my shoulder operated on and I now shoot a compound bow. For three seasons I have hunted with a top of the line Hoyt compound. I have killed three elk, an antelope and two deer with it.

My personal experience has shown that a good compound is indeed vastly superior to a crossbow. They are more accurate, they hit harder, they are much easier to handle, the arrows are more stable in flight, etc. My Hoyt at 60 lbs will shoot plumb through an elk at 30 yards. I shoot a 31-inch draw with 2” over draw and Easton XX78 2312 arrows. In order to hunt in September I start practicing in late May, shooting morning and night 5 to 7 days per week. I take my shooting very seriously.

There has been a proliferation of crossbows in Wyoming in recent years and many if not most serious archery hunters are very much opposed to allowing crossbows in the field. The anti-crossbow sentiment has more to do with a prejudice against the people who buy them than the bow. Every year countless crossbows are purchased the last week in August and are taken hunting the first of September. There are a bunch of folks who don’t want to take the time to learn how to shoot a “real” bow so they buy the x-bow instead.

Unfortunately, the boom in crossbows has put a whole lot more hunters in the field. This in turn is resulting in silent elk ruts from all of the people out blowing their elk bugles. Silent ruts really have the biologists concerned. In addition, the guy that buys a bow the week before he goes hunting often is clueless about how to go about killing a critter with a sharp stick. We are finding crippled elk that have been shot in the head and in the chest (head on) with crossbow bolts. Of course, this happens with new shooters using compounds too.

Along with the increase in bow hunters has come an increase in 4-wheelers. More and more terrain is being torn up in the fall and the anti-four-wheeler crowd is quick to blame it on hunters. The older traditional bow hunters in turn blame it on the guys who have enough disposable income to buy their crossbow and Polaris Sportsman 4x4 on Thursday then go hunting on Saturday. The discussions can get downright uncivil. Of course, the more hunters argue amongst their own ranks, the more ammo the anti-hunting coalition has.

There have been several efforts to “outlaw” crossbows in Wyoming by eliminating all bows with over 80% let off. The group most responsible for defeating those attempts is Bow Hunters of Wyoming (BOW). Oddly enough, most BOW members use traditional or compound bows.

Anyway, sorry for the long-winded rant. I think if you got to the truth, you would find the anti crossbow folks (who archery hunt) really don’t care about the physics involved in shooting an arrow from a crossbow. They just don’t consider crossbow hunters to be “real” archery hunters and they don’t want them in the field. By the way, many “traditional” archers feel the same way about compound bows. Kinda snobby ain’t it?
 
Ankeny,

In reading your post I heard a lot of the smae things that I've heard in opposition to xbow hunting before.. but one phrase stood out.

Please don't think I am sniping at you, becuase I value your whole post, and I hope I am reading this line out of context.

At the point we are in the struggle to maintain our hunting/shooting/outdoors rights in this country and with the devastating decline across the entire country in hunting licenceses, particularly in the younger age groups, It pains me greatly to hear this said by a hunter:

"Unfortunately, the boom in crossbows has put a whole lot more hunters in the field."

The day that we resent other hunters in the woods who are using Legal methods to hunt and harvest game we start down a slippery slope to becoming anti-hunters.

This same argument has haunted the Muzzle loading community, with the "traditionalists" resenting the "in-liners."

How many 10 year olds do you know who can effectivley use a Compound bow at an energy level higher enough to be used humanely on game (45-50#s) ?? I don't know many, if any.. and My 3 year old was shooting our new Xbow at hitting a 3x3 box at 20 yards today. Kids are the most important people to get into the woods hunting. In states like Ohio, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and others, The Archery season is weeks, if not months, longer than the gun season. If Xbow hunting makes it possible to get 30 more chances for a faterh to take a youg child hunting, I'm all for it.
If it means that a few hundred new men across the country will get into hunting because they think the Xbow is "cool" .. I'm all for it.
If a guy like me who has no interest in devoting the time necessary to become effective with a compound bow, can take advantage of a few more opportunities to hunt because of the Xbow, I'm all for it.
If some wome who are not physically strong enough to master a hunting wieght compound bow, but who enjoy archery competitions, like my wife, can join there friends during the archery season, perhaps as first time hunters.. I'm all for it.

In short, I don't mean to come down on you personally, Ankeny, but I do mean to tell EVERYONE who thinks we shouldn't get as many legal hunters in the field as possible that they need to wake up and smell the coffee. The fewer hunters we have, the fewer huting voters we have.... etc, etc, etc....

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-Essayons
 
The way Ankeny's post came a cross to me was that those who purchase a crossbow and don't take the time to become educated about it's proper use become more of a threat than an asset in the field.

Much like those who purchase a gun for self-defense and don't take the time to educate themselves on it's use, safe handling, or situational awareness. They become more of a threat to society than an asset.

I'm not a bow hunter, but I believe that the use of a compound bow or a traditional recurve (is that right) bow take much more practice to use correctly than a crossbow does.

Lazy people will take the low road, and by skirting the required education become more of a danger to us all.

Sincerely,

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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."

www.countdown9199.com
 
john,

I can only assume that you are not a bow hunter and that is why you took Ankeny's post that way.

If it means you are "lazy" because you choose to use a Xbow instead of a compound bow, then how incredibly lazy are you if you choose to use a scope instead of using iron sights?? Or if youuse a rifle at all for that matter... Why not drop out of trees with knives and clubs, that would REALLY show initiative!!

The attitude that Compound Bow hunters have against Xbow hunters is really seeming more and more irrational to me, the more I think about it.

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-Essayons
 
Rob,

You don't have to assume anything. I clearly stated that I was not a bow hunter.

My assumption of more required training for a compound or recurve bow comes from Ankeny post:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Every year countless crossbows are purchased the last week in August and are taken hunting the first of September. There are a bunch of folks who don’t want to take the time to learn how to shoot a “real” bow so they buy the x-bow instead.[/quote]

Now, does it or does it not take more training to use properly a compound or recurve bow as opposed to a crossbow? Please educate me on this question.

I'm not against crossbows at all, and I find nothing threatening about their appearance. In fact, the only weapon that I find threatening is one that is directed at me! ;)

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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."

www.countdown9199.com


[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited May 20, 1999).]
 
I'm not sure if what's rattling around in my noggin has gelled sufficiently enough to express my thoughts, but here goes. There have been several very good points brought up here. Some have been left a bit unfinished, and some are all different viewpoints from the same side of the same argument. I think the "lazy" crossbow hunters that John has in mind can be equated with the "slob" poaching hunters with rifles, who care nothing for the sport of the hunt, have no respect for legal hunting seasons or bag limits, and take potshots at anything that moves. "Lazy" or "slob" hunters, both gun and bow, are good examples of the type of hunters that anti-hunters point to when they want to call for a ban on hunting. I think there is a degree of ethics involved in Ankeny's example of somebody who gets a crossbow because there's no committment in learning how to properly use it. They may indeed want the "easy way out", or the simplest way of just plain old killing something. I can see Rob and Ankeny's point. It's great to see more hunters out in the field, to a point, of course, but why are they there? To really partake of a hunting heritage and experience, or just to kill something? Are these the same types that blast sparrows and STOP signs with little regard for their actions? If so, maybe they should stick to barstools during weekend-long football marathons. I think this may be John's point about some particular hunter being an asset or liability in the field. We are all ambassadors or emmissaries for our hunting sports and hunting rights. We should want the non-hunting public's impression or encounter with us to be a positive one, not negative. We should want all hunters to be good examples, not bad.

That being said, I see a bigger problem just under the surface of many of the debates over "modernist vs. traditionalist". Stick bow hunters scorn compound users, which both in turn look down on crossbow users. In the same vein, "regular" muzzleloader shooters have no use for the "in-liners". Traditional target shooters make fun of the IPSC crowd, who in turn simply shake their heads at cowboy action shooters. Trap and skeet people have no idea why anybody would possible stand in a cold swamp surrounded by a bunch of plastic decoys with a "cannon" in their hands waiting for some teals. I've heard about argumenting sides of the ORV/mountain biker/equestrian/hiker struggles that allow developers to swoop in and pave hundreds of acres of precious lands while everybody was focused on preserving control over their own little fiefdoms.

In this day and age, we all have to find some middle ground and present a united front against all the "anti's". Rob, John, and Ankeny all have good valid points, and their separate points when taken as a whole and blended into a "bigger picture" is a strong front indeed. Hope this made sense.

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Don LeHue

The pen is mightier than the sword...outside of arms reach. Modify radius accordingly for rifle.
 
Don,

The opening line of your closing paragraph is exactly what I have been trying to stree:

"In this day and age, we all have to find some middle ground and present a united front against all the "anti's"."

John,

Yes, it takes less effort to hunt successfully with a Xbow than a Compound Box. It also takes less effort to hunt successfully with a rifle than it does with a handgun, or with a scope than it does with iron sights.

It is ludicrous to equate using a simpler weapon to a higher potential for "shooting stop signs" and "poaching." The number of Xbows taken from poachers is infinitismal. How can it be argued that making them LEGAL to hunt with will make them more likely to be used illegally ?? (sounds like something HCI would say to me........)

Poachers by nature are showing initiative.. they go out of there way to take chances to hunt illegally.... they already use the best equipment they have on hand.. spotlights and small calibre powerful rifles.. If the Xbow was a good weapon for poaching, they'd already be using them. Have you ever tried to use any type of bow from inside a truck??

If someone is buying a license and going into the woods, they are participating in the hunting tradition. Whether they hike up a mountiains during a blizzard with a bow and some food to spend a weekend looking for a bull elk, they pay $10,000 a day to shoot imported game on a Texas ranch from the top of a Range Rover, they head out after some quail with their grandson and a couple good dogs, or they stand on a fire trail with a few buddies waiting for another group of hunters to "drive" the deer to them.... they are all hunting. Your tradtion may not be somebody else's, but they both all valid expressions of man's desire to hunt. Different people hunt in different ways.

More licensed hunters are nothing but good.

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-Essayons
 
Rob,

I'm not sure if the rest of your post beyond that one paragraph past your address to me was directed to me. However, I want you to know that even though I do not participate at this time in hunting (archery or firearm) I know how valuable of a tradition it can be. Some of the best times I had with my father were on the mountainside sitting by the fire with another group of hunters or out in the field spotting for deer.

It is certainly not my desire to restrict the use of the crossbow, compound bow, recurve bow, rife, shotgun, handgun, spear, or knife, within the tradition of responsible hunting.

I'm not sure that the point I am trying to make concerning training and discipline is coming across.

I was going to try again, but decided to simply say that we're on the same side, and I'm glad. :D

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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."

www.countdown9199.com


[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited May 20, 1999).]
 
Rob:

You are right; I chose my words poorly when I stated, "Unfortunately, the boom in crossbows has put a whole lot more hunters in the field." I do believe anything that promotes the tradition of hunting is valuable. Let me clarify what I meant, and I hope it doesn't add more fuel to the fire.

First, I was speaking specifically about elk hunting. Up until a few years ago hunters could use a rifle or handgun in many parts of Wyoming to hunt elk during the rut. Since success rates are quite high during the rut, an imbalance in the bull to cow ratio began to develop. Also, all the guys with cow calls and bugles has caused an interesting phenomenon known as a "silent rut". The bulls have become conditioned to the hunters and more or less have shut up. The effects of the silent rut are not well known and many game biologists are very concerned. For these reasons, and others, the Game and Fish Commission discontinued the practice of allowing people to hunt the rut with rifles and/or handguns.

People who want to hunt the rut have had to turn to bows since archery season is during September. Many people have begun purchasing crossbows because they can become proficient with them faster than a compound. I am not kidding when I tell you the majority of crossbows sold in my area (according to the dealers) is during the period immediately preceding the opening of elk season. Now pay attention, this is also the period of time when most "low end" compounds are sold.

Due to the proliferation of new archery hunters, we are now seeing the silent rut phenomenon developing in many areas statewide. This in turn has developed into somewhat of a controversial subject among hunters and game managers. Of course, the blame is being laid at the doorstep of the new kid on the block, the crossbow hunter. The whole affair is indeed unfortunate.

Remember, my original post was an explanation of why some (many) traditional bow hunters dislike crossbows. I offered the post as a perspective from someone who has been on both sides of the issue. As I previously stated, I hunted for years with a crossbow. Several good friends of mine have recently started hunting with crossbows. They are ethical hunters with a deep love of the outdoors and a great respect for game animals. However, many old time archery hunters see crossbow hunters, including my friends, as interlopers and their presence is not appreciated. Frankly, that attitude is founded in selfishness and is very destructive and counter-productive.

I agree that the discussion of compound vs. crossbow can seem irrational and the whole affair is disturbing to me. However, the Game and Fish may be faced with having to curb the number of hunters in the field during the rut. They can do that by changing season dates, going to a limited quota license, or specifying the type of bow used. If I was to guess, I would say it is only a matter of time before bows with over 80% let off are only permitted for use by physically handicapped hunters.


[This message has been edited by Ankeny (edited May 21, 1999).]
 
Okay, Ankeny,

I think I've got you now. You are saying that it is actaully the physical number of hunters in the woods that is causing the silent Rut phenomenon.. That makes sense..

But, I wouldn't think that Xbow hunters are any more successful than their Compound Cousins. The Xbow IS NOT a rifle, and the effective range is not any better than that of a Xbow.

I think the appropriate response from the regulatory agency would be to have a lottery for the rut season. Even if they limit it to archery hunters... that would put a limited number of hunters in the woods, but allow them to use any weapon.. or at least any bow.

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-Essayons
 
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