Creepy triggers

J

JimL

New member
I guess it's about time I ask what on earth people mean exactly when they talk about trigger "creep." :confused: My cat creeps under the porch, but my triggers stay right with the guns. :D

BTW, it's nice to have a relatively unbiased group here. I can get absolutely nothing out of the forum for problems with my own primary gun. You either heap roses on the name or you get flamed.
 
Some people say it is nothing more than a roll trigger with grit!;)

Movement before the crisp break.
Not the same as the takeup.

Sorta like a double action pull!

Not so bad if it is consistent, but the problem is when it is constantly changing.
but then, as above, many top shooters are going arguing against the concept of that crisp surprise break, and saying that controlled trigger movement, i.e condensed surprise break is the real key. In this case many of the top bullseye shooters are now following Brian Zins (10 time camp perry champion)in the concept of the roll trigger break. I think more action shooters already do this....condensing the surprise break and just pull through, knowing that the gun will fire in the process.
 
"Trigger creep," like more than a few other shooting terms, tends to mean different things to different people.

Unload a semi-automatic pistol. Check it. Double-check it. There's almost always at least a very small quantity of slack in the trigger: the looseness of the trigger before anything even begins to happen. Slack isn't absolutely unavoidable, but nearly so, and doesn't seem much of a problem to most shooters.

Take up the slack, which is to say: pull back on the trigger until the slight looseness is gone. The term "creep" refers to all the motion between the end of slackness and the instant the trigger breaks and sends the firing pin or striker forward. Creep is measurable two ways:

  1. Distance
  2. Pounds of pull

In general, the less creep, the more accurately most shooters will shoot the gun; that said™, however, there's no such thing as a commonly accepted measure of too much creep, and many shooters perceive creep-free triggers as "too light." Revolver triggers pulled in single action can have both slack and creep, whereas when pulled in double action, the longer, heavier pull isn't creepy, but simply longer and heavier. Glock triggers are creepy by design. Some people prefer that feel. Some people loathe, detest, and despise it.

Creep and trigger pull are associated, but distinct. It's entirely possible to have a perfectly crisp, but heavy trigger, as well as a very light, but creepy trigger. The grittier and/or more inconsistent the pull feels, the "worse" people call the creep; unfortunately, triggers without creep can also be inconsistent.

Do you begin to get the feeling the word "creep" means many things to many people, some of which overlap? Your best bet is to try as many guns as possible. You'll develop a feel—not a theoretic idea, but a feel—for creep.
 
I have always been a believer in the surprise theroy makes a good shot. At age 7 when my dad took me to the shooting gallery, he explained the squeeze till you are surprized when the weapon fires. I found it to be true again and again in later life.


Forty years ago I was issued a S&W model 10 when I joined the PD. I discovered the Smith double action trigger has an audible two click stage. Then the weapon fires almost as a surprise after that second click, resulting in a stop the threat shot. Single action was no problem for me.

In later years I carried a S&W 5906 on the street, but I had nightmares about the long first shot trigger pull, causing my round to go astray. Never really got used to it. Maybe it was a mind block on my part.

Since retiring I have a Walther PPS and I like the striker type trigger dispite the long pull on each shot. It feels smooth enough so as not to pull me off target.

Practice,practice,practice, so you can get used to your weapon.
We all have that nagging thought about," What will my weapon & I do when the threat is real?"

JIM S.
 
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Creepy creep

Do you begin to get the feeling the word "creep" means many things to many people, some of which overlap? Your best bet is to try as many guns as possible. You'll develop a feel—not a theoretic idea, but a feel—for creep.
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Yeah I definitely see that here as in just about anything about guns there are more definitions of a word than is often helpful.

I guess it is just inevitable that when you read a writer in a gun rag talking about creep you really have no idea what he or she is saying.
 
Roll trigger

Brian Zins (10 time camp perry champion)in the concept of the roll trigger break.
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I guess my next thread will have to be to find out how many definitions there are for "roll trigger." :D :confused:
 
Creep and trigger pull are associated, but distinct. It's entirely possible to have a perfectly crisp, but heavy trigger, as well as a very light, but creepy trigger. The grittier and/or more inconsistent the pull feels, the "worse" people call the creep; unfortunately, triggers without creep can also be inconsistent.
Click to expand...
My .45 trigger makes me want to barf. Even on the SA part of DA/SA, after the take-up there are two distinct points at which it seems almost like I'm pulling through detents. Eventually there is the release but there is a feeling like sand in the works for the entire distance. I've cleaned and lubed it with this and that until I think the parts must be worn thin. But it's still there. Some have said dry fire it 1000 times and it will be OK. Some have said fill the action with toothpaste and dry fire it about 50 times. A relatively nearby gunsmith does something similar to the toothpaste.

Then there's a SIG I dry fired that was as smooth as if you were just lifting a 3 or 4 pound weight on your finger.

Still, my question was about figuring out what writers are trying to say. "Very little creep!?"
 
A Ruger P89 I owned was the definition of a creepy triggers. On Single as well as Double action it felt like a cap gun. The trigger didnt feel real and I thought it was going to break. Needless to say this threw my accuracy. I was shooting excellent with my 92FS. I would take up trigger slack which would endlessly crunch in single action. I kept squeezing I remember waiting for the discharge and it seemed endless. The trigger finally broke and was horrible and send my shot flying. I do not like Ruger Semi Autos. I sold the P89 (and my S&W 5906 :( which I shouldnt have done.) and it was good riddens. Both sales gave me the money for a S&W 1911 45ACP. The 1911 has always been my favorite, but my 1911 is a dream to shoot.
 
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Triggers have pretravel, creep, and overtravel. Think of a single action trigger. Pretravel is the slight amount of movement before the trigger begins exerting pressure on the sear. Creep is the slight amount of movement between the time the trigger begins exerting pressure on the sear and the moment the sear lets go of the hammer hook. Overtravel is the amount of trigger travel after the sear has disengaged the hammer and is necessary to ensure the sear completely clears the hammer and any half cock or safety notches. A little pretravel and overtravel are necessary for a safe and functional handgun. Creep is not necessary or desired.
 
Don't take this personally, please, 44Magnum. I mean this constructively rather than destructively. I sincerely do not want to hurt your feelings.

I think your definitions are in the X ring. I like yours better than my explanation.
 
I've never had a problem with the old S&W double action semi auto triggers. It is a smooth pull and goes off quickly enough. I think a single action semi auto is a better combat arm, but the double action has some advantages. I think one tends not to notice a little trigger creep in a combat situation; especially if one is accustomed to it and has drilled enough.
 
Mechanically, creep is the sear slightly camming back the hammer/striker before release. DA triggers are the ultimate example of creep, as you cam the hammer along its entire path of travel when pulling the trigger. On most SA triggers the creep is very minimal (to the point of being unoticeable on many firearms), as the hammer/striker is only being forced back a tiny degree. This small amount of camming is important because it prevents the hammer/striker from being released when bumped, or if pressure is put on the trigger and then ceased before the trigger breaks.

The camming is accomplished by the relative angles of the engagement surfaces between hammer and sear. If you have ever heard the terms "Postitive," or "Negative" sear engagement thrown around, they are referring to this action. Negative sear engagement is typically the result of overzealous trigger work and results in the hammer creeping forward as pressure is applied, which can result in the firearm discharging when bumped, or if the trigger is partially pulled and then released. A quick check for negative engagement is to put pressure on a trigger just under that needed to release the firing mechanism, and slowly add pressure again and see if the weight of the pull is less than when the trigger was pulled normally. On firearms where you can observe the hammer you can also very slowly pull the trigger and see if the hammer moves back slightly (and it can be only fractions of a degree), or creeps foward.
 
Non-definition of creep

I think I'm getting the picture and will put it differently from everything already said. Setting up a hair trigger is eliminating all creep.
 
Don't take this personally, please, 44Magnum. I mean this constructively rather than destructively. I sincerely do not want to hurt your feelings.

I think your definitions are in the X ring. I like yours better than my explanation.
Click to expand...

Thanks. When I read your first paragraph, I was thinking "oh boy." :)
 
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