Now and then I read a post of cracked frames on Sig 226 9mm pistols. If these are occuring, how do the frames stand up to the .40 or the 357 sig. These produce significantly higher pressures and it seems this would doom them to failure. Anyone have any experience with this? Thanks, hangfarr.
Cracked frames on sig 226?
- Thread starter hangfarr
- Start date
With all respect to Mr Blade, I have had a SIG 226 crack at the rails after firing 20000 plus rounds through it. This is not a problem with their all stainless version guns i.e 230, 232.
This quote came from the SIGARMS website:
"Back in the 80's, I was stationed with the Army in Germany. While there I bought a SIG Sauer P220 chambered in 9MM. In the 12 or so years since then, I have never had to do any work on it (other than standard care). And I have fired over 10,000 rounds through the original barrel. This pistol still remains the most accurate and trustworthy of any of my pistols."
Matthew Budd
It's interesting to note that they don’t harp how long the product lasts after 10000 rounds. In defense of SIG their customer service department handled it very well and they sent me a new gun.
Now if the design was so perfect, why did they post this news release?
Contact: Laura Burgess
Dir. Of PR/Corporate Communications
SIGARMS, Inc.
603-772-2302, ext. 136
burgess@sigarms.com
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
SIG Sauer P226 Sport Stock Pistol Unveiled
Stainless Steel Frame and Slide
Exeter, NH - Feb 2, 2002 - SIGARMS, Inc., manufacturer of the highest quality firearms and firearms training, announces a new addition to the SIG Classic Stainless line of pistols. The SIG Sauer P226 Sport Stock features a stainless steel slide and frame, hand-tuned by J.P. Sauer & Sohn GmbH, in Ekernfoerde, Germany. The new sport pistol will be in 9mm Parabellum and also feature a heavy "match" barrel, and an adjustable LPA rear sight.
The stainless steel slide and frame add, "heft" to the pistol and gives it less perceived recoil and quicker target re-acquisitioning. The stainless also provides greater corrosion resistance. The P226 Sport Stock pistol will be available by special order only.
SIGARMS is a leading manufacturer of premiere sporting guns and small arms for the military, law enforcement, and civilian markets, and continues to offer the "industry's best" in firearms training. For more information about SIGARMS' complete line of precision-engineered pistols, rifles and shotguns see the Web site www.sigarms.comor contact SIGARMS, Inc., 18 Industrial Drive, Exeter, NH 03833, Phone 603-772-2302.
In realty individuals like Mr. Blade probably never fired any gun that many times in their long and illustrious careers so I would suggest that they have their brain in gear before they start to type.
BTW, I own a 230, two 226's a 228 and a 229. On a side note if you ever decide to buy a used one look underneath the rails on the front of the frame you'll notice some interesting wear occurring there.
This quote came from the SIGARMS website:
"Back in the 80's, I was stationed with the Army in Germany. While there I bought a SIG Sauer P220 chambered in 9MM. In the 12 or so years since then, I have never had to do any work on it (other than standard care). And I have fired over 10,000 rounds through the original barrel. This pistol still remains the most accurate and trustworthy of any of my pistols."
Matthew Budd
It's interesting to note that they don’t harp how long the product lasts after 10000 rounds. In defense of SIG their customer service department handled it very well and they sent me a new gun.
Now if the design was so perfect, why did they post this news release?
Contact: Laura Burgess
Dir. Of PR/Corporate Communications
SIGARMS, Inc.
603-772-2302, ext. 136
burgess@sigarms.com
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
SIG Sauer P226 Sport Stock Pistol Unveiled
Stainless Steel Frame and Slide
Exeter, NH - Feb 2, 2002 - SIGARMS, Inc., manufacturer of the highest quality firearms and firearms training, announces a new addition to the SIG Classic Stainless line of pistols. The SIG Sauer P226 Sport Stock features a stainless steel slide and frame, hand-tuned by J.P. Sauer & Sohn GmbH, in Ekernfoerde, Germany. The new sport pistol will be in 9mm Parabellum and also feature a heavy "match" barrel, and an adjustable LPA rear sight.
The stainless steel slide and frame add, "heft" to the pistol and gives it less perceived recoil and quicker target re-acquisitioning. The stainless also provides greater corrosion resistance. The P226 Sport Stock pistol will be available by special order only.
SIGARMS is a leading manufacturer of premiere sporting guns and small arms for the military, law enforcement, and civilian markets, and continues to offer the "industry's best" in firearms training. For more information about SIGARMS' complete line of precision-engineered pistols, rifles and shotguns see the Web site www.sigarms.comor contact SIGARMS, Inc., 18 Industrial Drive, Exeter, NH 03833, Phone 603-772-2302.
In realty individuals like Mr. Blade probably never fired any gun that many times in their long and illustrious careers so I would suggest that they have their brain in gear before they start to type.
BTW, I own a 230, two 226's a 228 and a 229. On a side note if you ever decide to buy a used one look underneath the rails on the front of the frame you'll notice some interesting wear occurring there.
blades67,
I have seen more than one P-226 range rental gun go down with a cracked frame. The first indication is that it will start consistently shooting to the left, usually after firing well on the north side of 30k rounds. Other than that, function is usually unaffected, really, although SIG will cheerfully replace the frame. FWIW, I've seen one Glock (and had reliable reports from gunsmiths I know about others) that has exhibited a similar phenomenon. Guns are just machines, folks. Shoot 'em enough and something's bound to break.
OTOH, ryucasta, that has nothing to do with why they came out with the stainless frame guns. They will continue producing the aluminum frames right alongside the stainless ones.
Most of the frame-cracks on P-226's that I have seen are on older ones with the humungous "sand cutouts" in the frame.
I have seen more than one P-226 range rental gun go down with a cracked frame. The first indication is that it will start consistently shooting to the left, usually after firing well on the north side of 30k rounds. Other than that, function is usually unaffected, really, although SIG will cheerfully replace the frame. FWIW, I've seen one Glock (and had reliable reports from gunsmiths I know about others) that has exhibited a similar phenomenon. Guns are just machines, folks. Shoot 'em enough and something's bound to break.
OTOH, ryucasta, that has nothing to do with why they came out with the stainless frame guns. They will continue producing the aluminum frames right alongside the stainless ones.
Most of the frame-cracks on P-226's that I have seen are on older ones with the humungous "sand cutouts" in the frame.
Tamara,
If I came across like that was the reason why SIG was adding the stainless 226 frame to their product line up, then my apologies to all concerned. It's my understanding that they developed the SIG Sauer P226 Sport Stock because they wanted to market to the IDPA community and they knew that their existing alloy frames would not hold up to long term competition usage.
Their existing design is quite adequate if the number of round that will be shot is kept low < 15000. Lets face it how many shooters will put that many rounds through a gun not many.
For example I also have a 1911 that has an aluminum frame and steel slide by no stretch of the imagination would I shoot that many rounds through it. Common sense and experience tells me that a softer metal (Frame) rubbing against a harder surface (Slide) wear will naturally occur on the weaker of the two materials.
That’s my two cents
If I came across like that was the reason why SIG was adding the stainless 226 frame to their product line up, then my apologies to all concerned. It's my understanding that they developed the SIG Sauer P226 Sport Stock because they wanted to market to the IDPA community and they knew that their existing alloy frames would not hold up to long term competition usage.
Their existing design is quite adequate if the number of round that will be shot is kept low < 15000. Lets face it how many shooters will put that many rounds through a gun not many.
For example I also have a 1911 that has an aluminum frame and steel slide by no stretch of the imagination would I shoot that many rounds through it. Common sense and experience tells me that a softer metal (Frame) rubbing against a harder surface (Slide) wear will naturally occur on the weaker of the two materials.
That’s my two cents
I hope my Sigs last longer than 10,000-20,000 rounds. I don't consider that a high round count (I do a lot of shooting), as one of my Sigs is already approaching 5000 in under 3 years! If its true that 10k to 20k is the upper limit for Sig alloy frames, then I won't be buying anymore alloy Sigs. The only good news IMO is that the Sig 220ST is already out, and I hear that the Sig 226ST will be released before 2003. I'll be buying steel framed Sigs from now on if its true that the alloy lifespan is only 10k to 20k.
From the ones I've seen with the problem, the average is more like 25k-30k+. (...and again, not all develop this) If you've shot 5k in 3 years, then you have another 12-15 years before you even need to start thinking about it. I know of many that have put up with the abuse of being range guns for longer than that and are still plugging along. Most of the cases I've heard of are with older 9mm P-226's.
Just wondering as to why or how come the Sig p226 is so noticed with a few cracked frames. Is it because they are such good guns, that a few cracked frames here and there makes the anti Sigs out there conspire to attack them, lol? Has anyone ever considered or even spoken of any other brands like Glock, Hk, etc, with frames or barrels or even slides cracking? I have heard a few guys speak of different brand guns cracking at the barrel, slide and frame other than Sigs. I never see or hear everyone jump the bandwagon and say i.e, "oh Glock sucks cause they crack at the slide rails". And just cause Sig starts making stainless frames, they are guilty of bad aluminum frames? Hmmmm. Just a curious thought....
Hate to tell you this Ala Dan, I'm on my THIRD 228 due to cracked frame rails. First went prob 40K rds, second didn't make it to 10K, I'm afraid to even shoot the replacement...228's aren't immune to breakage. By the way, they weren't given a steady or even regular diet of heavy loads. 226's are supposed to be much less prone to breakage than 228's. But on the good side, i've got a 220 with over 60K and the frame looks almost perfect. Screw it! Everything wears, everything will break eventually.
Many of the Seals I've spoken with have lauded their 226s. Their guns do crack and wear out, but with round counts approaching 100,000, not 20,000. I think it's also important that the cracking doesn't immediately lead to a catastrophic failure-the gun will still work, for awhile.
It not just SIG's that are guilty of this, this will happen to any gun with an alloy frame and steel slide. BTW, I have seen steel frames on a 1911 fail when they have been acu-railed does that mean it bad not necessarily since accuracy is increased by that. To paraphrase Clint Eastwood in Magnum Force, One must know ones limitations. This applies to anything in life so whether you have a steel frame or an alloy frame you the owner of gun should make it a point to know all of its strengths and weaknesses and use it accordingly.
This argument reminds me of the US Navy in the late 60’s through 70’s, when they started to build warships with aluminum superstructures. This was done due to the fact that aluminum weighs less, which would help cut down the cost of running the ship i.e. fuel. The only problem was that if a fire broke out after it reaches critical temperature aluminum burns like wood. (I.e. Belknap/JFK Collision 1975 )That was a risk that the navy was willing to accept.
That’s the same with alloy and polymer framed guns, people buy them due to the weight savings and easy maintenance (No Rust), manufacturers love them due to the lower cost of the material and so on and so on and so on (Reminds me of a commercial).
That’s my two cents
This argument reminds me of the US Navy in the late 60’s through 70’s, when they started to build warships with aluminum superstructures. This was done due to the fact that aluminum weighs less, which would help cut down the cost of running the ship i.e. fuel. The only problem was that if a fire broke out after it reaches critical temperature aluminum burns like wood. (I.e. Belknap/JFK Collision 1975 )That was a risk that the navy was willing to accept.
That’s the same with alloy and polymer framed guns, people buy them due to the weight savings and easy maintenance (No Rust), manufacturers love them due to the lower cost of the material and so on and so on and so on (Reminds me of a commercial).
That’s my two cents
Aluminum frames do not hold up as well as steel ones.
Regardless of the manufacturer.
Period.
That said, Sigs with aluminum frames are fine pistols which will outlast most of their owners. Those that don't, are easily enough repaired.
There really shouldn't be any "controversy."
Regardless of the manufacturer.
Period.
That said, Sigs with aluminum frames are fine pistols which will outlast most of their owners. Those that don't, are easily enough repaired.
There really shouldn't be any "controversy."
Any prevention methods?
I recently purchesed a P226 in .40S&W. Is there any type of grease that I can put on the slide to slow down the wear? It just seems that bare metal to bare metal will wear the fastest, and lubricated metal that doesn't actually touch won't wear at all. I'm pulling this from my engineering knowledge of heavy equipment, so I don't know it it applies to firearms.
edited for spelling
I recently purchesed a P226 in .40S&W. Is there any type of grease that I can put on the slide to slow down the wear? It just seems that bare metal to bare metal will wear the fastest, and lubricated metal that doesn't actually touch won't wear at all. I'm pulling this from my engineering knowledge of heavy equipment, so I don't know it it applies to firearms.
edited for spelling
It seems that most aluminium framed guns will go to about 20,000 rounds "without measurable wear", as most manufacturer ads will attest (Kimber most recently). Ruger gave me this official statement also. What they don't say is that aluminium framed guns go 20,000 rounds without evidence of wear - then they just flat break without much warning (ie: cracked frames). There are of course exceptions to every rule. Steel is just stronger and that is why I plan to buy a 220ST and a 226ST!
The problem with aluminum is that it has little or no fatigue strength. That means that every time it flexes, even the slightest amount, it is weakened just a little bit. This has a cumulative effect, until it eventually fails. Steel and Ploymer have virtually unlimited fatigue strength if the amount of flex is held to within the design limits.
I would not own an alloy framed gun, but then I'm rather anal about those things.
I would not own an alloy framed gun, but then I'm rather anal about those things.
Harrydog got close to it, I don't know what alloy Sig uses, but I'm guessing its a 7xxx series, probably 7075 T-? which is probably -6 or -76. Like many Al alloys, 7 series will work harden which will increase hardness and to some degree tensile strength, but decreasing ductility and flexibility, setting the stage for cracks. I figure each shot is like a small hammer blow to the frame, eventually changing the aluminum.
30,000+ is a nice service life and I'd still love to own a Sig, but I think steel and high quality polymer(not from Taurus) is a better frame material choice.
30,000+ is a nice service life and I'd still love to own a Sig, but I think steel and high quality polymer(not from Taurus) is a better frame material choice.
What kind of urks me is that Sig charges high dollars for their pistols, and yet they use a frame material that has a relatively low lifetime (this thread establishes 10,000-20,000 rounds on average). I don't mind paying a lot of money, but when I do I expect to get something in return that lasts a long time. I'm very happy with my Sigs so far, I just wish that I had the option to buy a steel frame back then when I bought it. So, in the future I will limit my purchases to steel framed Sigs (ie the 220ST and 226ST). At least then I will get what I pay for and expect.