I just found that I am the owner of 600 rds of corrosive 45 acp ammo that was mfg. by WRA in 1942. Would it be worth it to shoot this or does it have any collector appeal? I have a Ruger p90. Would this ammo ruin this gun. What cleaning procedures would be best after firing this? Thanks for any help.
Corrosive 45 acp
- Thread starter gp45acp
- Start date
Rugerismisticness
New member
Could I buy it off you? 
WRA (winchester) corrosive ammo shouldn't damage a P90. The barrel and most parts are stainless and won't be effected as badly as a carbon steel gun. Corrosive ammo is fine as long as you thouroughly clean it after each outing (were talking a bath, maybe putting the parts in a bucket of gun cleaner).
WRA (winchester) corrosive ammo shouldn't damage a P90. The barrel and most parts are stainless and won't be effected as badly as a carbon steel gun. Corrosive ammo is fine as long as you thouroughly clean it after each outing (were talking a bath, maybe putting the parts in a bucket of gun cleaner).Well if it is from 1942 ammo, it is highly Corrosive. And it will mess up you gum unless you clean it like this. First pour some Ammonia Through the barrel. Then pour BOILING HOT water in the barrel. Then use an air compressor and blow it through the barrel and on the outside. Then from there clean it normally.
Steven_Seagal
New member
What is meant by "Corrosive Ammo?"
Is the Jacket Corroded? sorry, I have never heard of this and I'm trying to figure itout
Is the Jacket Corroded? sorry, I have never heard of this and I'm trying to figure itout
The primers use chemicals that are, or tend to be corrosive. From what I was always told, they were supposed to be more stable/reliable, and longer lived.
Dont know if its true or not, but I do know what can happen if you dont clean properly, and quickly, depending on the weather. Best to clean right away, with either old GI bore cleaner, or hot soapy water if youre shooting it out of your guns.
Mike Irwin
Staff
For cleaning, skip the ammonia and simply use lots of hot water with dish soap in it.
The ammonia really serves only to remove trace amounts of oil under which the corrosive salts might hide.
The ammonia really serves only to remove trace amounts of oil under which the corrosive salts might hide.
Actually ammonia is a base that tends to neutralize the acids produced by the salts in corrosive primers interacting with moisture. While ammonia, such as found in Windex, helps in the short run, one really needs to clean the entire action, including the bolt, as well as the barrel as soon as possible thoroughly to remove the corrosive salts and avoid damaging one's firearm.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Actually ammonia is a base that tends to neutralize the acids produced by the salts in corrosive primers interacting with moisture."
Ammonia is overkill, and some claim that, in high performance rifles, trace amounts of ammonia left in the fissures from such cleaning can cause hydrogen embrittlement that leads to premature aging of the barrel.
Soaps and detergents are basic unless they've been buffered.
Dawn dish detergent has a PH of 9, some commercial soaps have PHs of 10 or higher.
Considering that acids formed by the attraction of moisture to a salt are water soluble by their very nature, flushing with water removes the acidic compounds easily.
For years I shot a muzzleloader. All that sulfur left in the bore, with hygroscopic potassium nitrate, produced a witches brew of acidic compounds.
I cleaned only with Palmolive, which is heavily buffered. Several passes in the bore with soapy water to remove any oils and the worst of the fouling, followed by a 5 to 10 minute flush with very hot tap water.
Never had any after-action rusting in more than 5 pounds of black powder run through that gun.
Ammonia is overkill, and some claim that, in high performance rifles, trace amounts of ammonia left in the fissures from such cleaning can cause hydrogen embrittlement that leads to premature aging of the barrel.
Soaps and detergents are basic unless they've been buffered.
Dawn dish detergent has a PH of 9, some commercial soaps have PHs of 10 or higher.
Considering that acids formed by the attraction of moisture to a salt are water soluble by their very nature, flushing with water removes the acidic compounds easily.
For years I shot a muzzleloader. All that sulfur left in the bore, with hygroscopic potassium nitrate, produced a witches brew of acidic compounds.
I cleaned only with Palmolive, which is heavily buffered. Several passes in the bore with soapy water to remove any oils and the worst of the fouling, followed by a 5 to 10 minute flush with very hot tap water.
Never had any after-action rusting in more than 5 pounds of black powder run through that gun.
Jim Watson
New member
Corrosive primers are made with potassium chlorate which burns to potassium chloride, an analog of sodium chloride which is common table salt or sea salt.
It is hygroscopic and picks up moisture from humid air. Then the wet chloride rusts the steel. In extreme cases with really damp air, a crystal of potassium chloride can dissolve itself into a little puddle of salt water. Disagree with Mike, salt solutions are not acidic. A pH meter runs on potassium chloride solution because it IS neutral.
Potassium chloride is a salt, it is already neutral and (basic, alkaline)ammonia serves only as a detergent, as said. The ammonia connection originally arose when it was used to remove hard metal fouling from cupro-nickel bullet jackets and people found their barrels did not rust as they had when they used only oily nitro solvents.
The only thing sure to get rid of the chloride residue is water. It is not soluble in oily solvents like Hoppes' or even straight alcohol.
Old GI bore cleaner was an oil emulsion with enough water to dissolve out the chloride and enough oil to protect the metal until you could get some real lube on it. This took care of military weapons for many decades without need of a teakettle or bathtub worth of water.
John Taylor said all you needed to keep your express rifle safe was a cup of hot water and a little funnel to get some down each barrel; in addition to regular cleaning. As he said, if water was short, the dregs in the coffee pot would do well enough. And in extreme cases, everybody always has a source of a mostly water byproduct. Better a little uric acid than potassium chloride.
Black powder residues are not particularly acidic. The potassium nitrate, sulfur, and charcoal burn mostly to potassium carbonate, which is mildly basic. The only source of acid is sulfur burnt to potassium sulfide and hydrogen sulfide gas not expelled behind the bullet; which can theoretically form sulfurous (not sulfuric) acid... but not much.
BP residue is not as corrosive as chlorate primer residue, but since it needed a water wash to get all the solids out, you got rid of the very corrosive residue of the old mercuric fulminate - potassium chlorate percussion caps.
Some of the early smokeless ammo would rust a gun before you could get it home because there was nothing to dilute the primer residue. Likewise the mercury would rot the brass scorched clean by smokeless. (Mercury has not been used in cartridge priming for a LONG time.)
It is hygroscopic and picks up moisture from humid air. Then the wet chloride rusts the steel. In extreme cases with really damp air, a crystal of potassium chloride can dissolve itself into a little puddle of salt water. Disagree with Mike, salt solutions are not acidic. A pH meter runs on potassium chloride solution because it IS neutral.
Potassium chloride is a salt, it is already neutral and (basic, alkaline)ammonia serves only as a detergent, as said. The ammonia connection originally arose when it was used to remove hard metal fouling from cupro-nickel bullet jackets and people found their barrels did not rust as they had when they used only oily nitro solvents.
The only thing sure to get rid of the chloride residue is water. It is not soluble in oily solvents like Hoppes' or even straight alcohol.
Old GI bore cleaner was an oil emulsion with enough water to dissolve out the chloride and enough oil to protect the metal until you could get some real lube on it. This took care of military weapons for many decades without need of a teakettle or bathtub worth of water.
John Taylor said all you needed to keep your express rifle safe was a cup of hot water and a little funnel to get some down each barrel; in addition to regular cleaning. As he said, if water was short, the dregs in the coffee pot would do well enough. And in extreme cases, everybody always has a source of a mostly water byproduct. Better a little uric acid than potassium chloride.
Black powder residues are not particularly acidic. The potassium nitrate, sulfur, and charcoal burn mostly to potassium carbonate, which is mildly basic. The only source of acid is sulfur burnt to potassium sulfide and hydrogen sulfide gas not expelled behind the bullet; which can theoretically form sulfurous (not sulfuric) acid... but not much.
BP residue is not as corrosive as chlorate primer residue, but since it needed a water wash to get all the solids out, you got rid of the very corrosive residue of the old mercuric fulminate - potassium chlorate percussion caps.
Some of the early smokeless ammo would rust a gun before you could get it home because there was nothing to dilute the primer residue. Likewise the mercury would rot the brass scorched clean by smokeless. (Mercury has not been used in cartridge priming for a LONG time.)
Mike Irwin
Staff
OK, it's been a LONG time since chemistry, but I THINK this is correct...
Potassium chloride is KCl.
Water is H2O
Combination of the two I THINK results in some production of K2O (potassium oxide) and HCl (hydrochloric acid).
God, I was never very good at chemistry, but I THINK it's a low order reduction reaction, meaning that it's not efficient, and it's slow to happen...
"The only source of acid is sulfur burnt to potassium sulfide and hydrogen sulfide gas not expelled behind the bullet; which can theoretically form sulfurous (not sulfuric) acid... but not much."
OK, I obviously did that reaction chain incorrectly. As I said, chemistry... not my strong suite.
"Mercury has not been used in cartridge priming for a LONG time."
Well, I guess 30 years is a long time...
Eley Tenex .22 match ammunition used mercuric priming into the middle to late 1970s.
Some lots of US military match ammo was not only loaded with corrosive primers, they were also loaded with mercuric primers... Until 1972.
"BP residue is not as corrosive as chlorate primer residue, but since it needed a water wash to get all the solids out, you got rid of the very corrosive residue of the old mercuric fulminate - potassium chlorate percussion caps."
With black powder it's a question of quantity. 100 grains of black powder contains approximately 65 grains of potassium nitrate, a corrosive primer contains less than 1 grain of potassium chlorate, which IIRC is reduced to a similar amount of potassium chloride.
Both have roughly the same solubility in water at the same temperatures, which I THINK makes them roughly equally hygroscopic.
This keeps up I'm going to have to go back to college for a degree in P Chem
Potassium chloride is KCl.
Water is H2O
Combination of the two I THINK results in some production of K2O (potassium oxide) and HCl (hydrochloric acid).
God, I was never very good at chemistry, but I THINK it's a low order reduction reaction, meaning that it's not efficient, and it's slow to happen...
"The only source of acid is sulfur burnt to potassium sulfide and hydrogen sulfide gas not expelled behind the bullet; which can theoretically form sulfurous (not sulfuric) acid... but not much."
OK, I obviously did that reaction chain incorrectly. As I said, chemistry... not my strong suite.
"Mercury has not been used in cartridge priming for a LONG time."
Well, I guess 30 years is a long time...
Eley Tenex .22 match ammunition used mercuric priming into the middle to late 1970s.
Some lots of US military match ammo was not only loaded with corrosive primers, they were also loaded with mercuric primers... Until 1972.
"BP residue is not as corrosive as chlorate primer residue, but since it needed a water wash to get all the solids out, you got rid of the very corrosive residue of the old mercuric fulminate - potassium chlorate percussion caps."
With black powder it's a question of quantity. 100 grains of black powder contains approximately 65 grains of potassium nitrate, a corrosive primer contains less than 1 grain of potassium chlorate, which IIRC is reduced to a similar amount of potassium chloride.
Both have roughly the same solubility in water at the same temperatures, which I THINK makes them roughly equally hygroscopic.
This keeps up I'm going to have to go back to college for a degree in P Chem
Jim Watson
New member
As I recall chemistry, dissolve KCl in water and it mostly ionizes, K+ and Cl-;
ions of equal potential and therefore neutral in solution.
From Baker Chemical, KCl, pH: ca. 7 Saturated aq. sl. @ 15C
I did not know Eley used mercuric priming. No matter in a rimfire, of course. Some of the early noncorrosive primers described by Hatcher were mercuric. Wouldn't rust your barrel but rotted the brass. The ammo companies did not support handloading in those days anyhow.
I have read of the old Western Match ammunition with the 8G primer.
There is no potassium nitrate left after shooting black powder; most of it goes to potassium carbonate, a little to potassium sulfide or sulfite.
Potassium carbonate is an analog to sodium carbonate, otherwise known as washing soda. Slightly basic and not much reactive to steel.
Potassium carbonate is MORE hygroscopic than potassium chloride but it is LESS corrosive.
(I worked in fertilizer R&D. Potassium chloride is the usual source of "potash" in fertilizer because it is cheap. But it is ferociously corrosive. Darn stuff will even eat into a concrete pad or bin and mild steel is candy.)
ions of equal potential and therefore neutral in solution.
From Baker Chemical, KCl, pH: ca. 7 Saturated aq. sl. @ 15C
I did not know Eley used mercuric priming. No matter in a rimfire, of course. Some of the early noncorrosive primers described by Hatcher were mercuric. Wouldn't rust your barrel but rotted the brass. The ammo companies did not support handloading in those days anyhow.
I have read of the old Western Match ammunition with the 8G primer.
There is no potassium nitrate left after shooting black powder; most of it goes to potassium carbonate, a little to potassium sulfide or sulfite.
Potassium carbonate is an analog to sodium carbonate, otherwise known as washing soda. Slightly basic and not much reactive to steel.
Potassium carbonate is MORE hygroscopic than potassium chloride but it is LESS corrosive.
(I worked in fertilizer R&D. Potassium chloride is the usual source of "potash" in fertilizer because it is cheap. But it is ferociously corrosive. Darn stuff will even eat into a concrete pad or bin and mild steel is candy.)
Mike Irwin
Staff
"There is no potassium nitrate left after shooting black powder"
Are you sure about that? I've never heard that the conversion is 100%. I've always heard that it's FAR less efficient that that, on the order of 80% for the most efficient burns.
Mercury was removed from military primers by the early 1900s at the latest and was largely removed from the civilian supply chain in the first decade of the 20th century.
Are you sure about that? I've never heard that the conversion is 100%. I've always heard that it's FAR less efficient that that, on the order of 80% for the most efficient burns.
Mercury was removed from military primers by the early 1900s at the latest and was largely removed from the civilian supply chain in the first decade of the 20th century.
Jim Watson
New member
Well, I shouldn't have said NO KNO3 left but there can't be much, it is the most reactive compound in the mix.
As I recall from Hatcher, the US Army dropped mercuric primers in 1898.
He said that some of the early attempts at noncorrosive primers in the 1920s were mercuric, though.
As I recall from Hatcher, the US Army dropped mercuric primers in 1898.
He said that some of the early attempts at noncorrosive primers in the 1920s were mercuric, though.
I shot about 40 rounds of 7.62x54 80s Russian through my 1890/30, all I did was run 4 or 5 patch's of Hoppes through it, followed by some oil patch's. Guess I better reconsider my approach. At least I live in the desert.
I thought that was enough. Guess I'm wrong, I still not going to clean it until I go shooting it next week.
I thought that was enough. Guess I'm wrong, I still not going to clean it until I go shooting it next week.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Yes, it's the most reactive part of the entire mixture, but black powder is, overall, incredibly inefficient in the conversion process.
Du Pont spent years and considerable sums of money (mainly the Gov't's money) trying to make black powder more efficient. The end result, arrived at in the late 1800s, was brown, or cocoa powder, which reduced the burning rate, allowing for greater combustion efficiency.
The end result was still, however, an incredibly inefficient propellant.
Du Pont spent years and considerable sums of money (mainly the Gov't's money) trying to make black powder more efficient. The end result, arrived at in the late 1800s, was brown, or cocoa powder, which reduced the burning rate, allowing for greater combustion efficiency.
The end result was still, however, an incredibly inefficient propellant.
Humidity does seem to have a big effect as to speed too. I shot a bunch of Egyptian 9mm out of my MAC that was corrosive. We got home late, and I put off cleaning until the next day. It was a very warm and humid part of the summer, and by the next morning, the barrel, muzzle, bolt and chamber area were all covered in a light, bright yellow/orange rust. Id never seen anything rust that quick before, or since. It pretty much just cleaned up, and it wasnt any kind of "deep" or anything, but it was very obvious.
My buddy that sold me the ammo told me to put the gun in the dishwasher when my wife wasnt home and run it through a cycle or two. Thats how he said he cleaned his UZIs after shooting it.
I also traded another buddy for a couple of M1 Garands he'd picked up off an old boy he did electric work for. One at a time at first. The guns were in real nice shape, just the barrels on both looked "dirty", no biggie.
The first one shot 12" at 100 yards, the second, 15". Apparently, they had both been shot with corrosive at some point, and put away dirty. What looked like dirty bores, quickly showed bad pitting and ruined barrels.
Jim Watson
New member
The salvation of your barrels.
When I was in fertilizer R&D there were guys figuring a "critical relative humidity" for our various granular products. If the ambient humidity is above the CRH, the material will absorb moisture. Some just until they cake a bag or pile solid, some until it dissolves itself. If it is "drier" than the CRH, it will store for a good while and remain free flowing.
In dry desert air, the chloride residue is not absorbing moisture and dry salt is not a corrosive agent.
I clean my BPCRs with diluted Windex+Vinegar as recommended by Mike Venturino. No dishwasher or bathtub for my Winchester and Browning. I usually reclean later with M-pro 7 just for confidence but have sometimes let it ride on the Windex cleaning and Ballistol lube for a while.
I remember reading about cocoa brown powder. Good stuff, as was the "prismatic" black powder developed by Rodman. Then there were the ammonium nitrate powders. Pretty hot stuff, but almost immediately outmoded by nitrocellulose smokeless.