Copper .32's- Would Appreciate Some Help...

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PowderApe

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I've been reloading since starting in the mid 60's as a kid. I started with a Leeloader and moved on to a press and dies. I reload for everything I own -except rimfires. I have probably 12 or more reloading manuals and use online sources as well. I find reloading both theapeutic and economical- as well as just plain fun. I can never get enough info and insight from others- from all sources- printed, verbal or online!

The Backstory: I am currently in the process of reloading for my M94 .32 Winchester Special and for a Remington Model 8 self-loader in .32 Remington. The Remington belongs to a buddy that wants to go hunting deer with it this fall. This was the rifle his grandfather used on his 'final hunt'. My buddy is getting on in age, and wants to do the same thing: harvest his last deer with his grandfather's rifle and then pass it on to his son.

The Dilemma: Since we live in California, we are forced to use only non-lead bullets. I did manage to find some .321 150gr solid copper bullets from Maker Bullets. No one else produces copper .321 slugs that I can find. 8mm/.323 - yes, but not .321/32 cal. I do have cases and dies for both calibers.

Unfortunately, there is no load data available for the bullet. I contacted Maker and was told they have no data available. The bullets were made for a special order and these were excess and sold online to reloaders. Nicely made CNC bullets!

I understand that reloading data for .32WS and .32 Rem are pretty much interchangeable. I do have data for common lead/copper 170gr bullets but nothing for plain copper 150gr for either cartridge.

At one time I thought of using Barnes' copper data for a 30-30 cartridge as a starting point. I figured the pressures should be ok- since the .32's have 'about' the same case capacitiy, and the bore (.308 vs .321) being larger should/would mitigate any excess pressure by virtue of being larger in diameter. (within reason!) I have not seen, heard or read anything concerning copper loads

Secondly, I thought of using printed plain old copper jacketed load data in .32 caliber and drop charges down a good 10-15% and work up. I can only find data for 170gr cup and core jacketed bullets so that defeats my idea for these 150's!

I also tried to work out a scenario using my QuickLoad program. (I'm a new user of it so not very well versed in it's use and mods.) The program doesnt accept my data because Maker Bullets database is not available at this time. Strike out there!

Has anyone else tried to roll up solid copper reloads for .32WinSpl and/or .32Rem?? Anyone want to share data or offer input? I have a very good supply of various powders, so any suggestions would be much appreciated!

Thanks in advance.
 
I don't own QuickenLoad, but I have used GRT quite a bit. On GRT, I can design new bullet and brass. Actually that is how I get to have brass for .22TCM. I took a .223 REM brass and modified it to .22TCM dimensions. Quite likely QuickLoad has similar features.

-TL

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Have you considered getting .323 bullets and sizing to .321, like with cast bullets? Not sure how it would effect accuracy but it should work...
 
Shadow: Yeah... thought of the .323/8mm sized to .321 route, but need to do it in copper- or some other non lead component. From what I've heard/read, you cant really resize the copper .323 this way. You'd need to turn/lathe/sand the diameter down to .321. Even tho it's only .002 over, the properties of the copper wont allow it to be squeezed and resized. There's a lot of good prospective .323/8mm stuff out there to chose from ...but not the "politiclly correct" lead free projectiles demanded by the State. I hear there's guys out there that just shoot the .323 bullets "as is" but my rifles slug out at .320 so that might be excessive and create too much pressure. Besides, they're about 100 yrs old so I really dont want to stress the steel too much.

TangoLima: I'm sure that QuickLoad allows to input new bullet details as well, but I havent figured out how ...yet. I've played around with the GRT software before springing for the QuickLoad version because of the larger databases. I think they're both pretty similar and both allow customization- I just havent had the time to sit down and play/learn the programs. Havent seen much documentation on either programs to study. I'm sure it's out there... somewhere!
 
Just as a point of order, copper can be "squeezed down" but it takes special machinery and tools and isn't something common reloaders can do with hand tools.

If you've got the $ someone will make whatever you want but its not cheap, and not even remotely practical for the few (hundred? less??) bullets you'll need to work up loads for your buddy's last hunt.

Lathe turning existing solid copper 8mm bullets to .321" is possible. Tedious, delicate work, but possible. If you go that route, pay attention to the bearing surface length, compared to standard lead core bullets. You'll likely need to adjust loads to compensate....

Hate to suggest it, but the easiest solution is to have your buddy's last hunt outside of the state of CA. IF possible.n (somewhere the laws are still sane enough to allow the use of the same rifle AND ammunition his grandfather used)

Good Luck!
 
Copper is not totally lacking in malleability. That kind of matter is called a diamond. Call Barnes and ask how much diameter difference their solids allow for. The old military tolerance for 30 cal barrels has groove diameters from 0.3605" to 0.3095", and if a .308 diameter Barnes bullet will be fine in those, it is likely to be fine in barrels that are -0.002" under, especially if you coat the bullets with moly or hBN first to act as a forming lube. But call them. They should have run into this before.
 
Thanks guys!
Unclenick: I do have the proper copper bullets from Maker Ammo, in the correct diameter .321"/150gr, so that's not the problem so I wont have to modify any slugs. I have 100 copper slugs and 100 jacketed lead FP's in 170gr so those should last my buddy for the rest of his (and his son's) future nostalgic Calif hunting needs.

What I DON'T have is reliable loading data for a 150gr copper. I tried calling Barnes a while back and they told me they cannot help as they do not make .321/32 cal/150gr bullets. MakerAmmo- the guys that made the .321 'REX' bullets- doesnt have any load data for the .321 because they were surplus from a bulk special order, and not a regular production item.

I do have lead 170gr data for both 32Rem and 32WinSpl- so those rounds are not really an issue.

44AMP: Suggested that too! I suggested he go hunt the last deer hunt outside of Calif (where relative normalicy still prevails) but he has a family cabin relatively close (within an hour's drive) and is able to frequently duck out for a couple of days here and there during deer season.


If I can run this scenario by you guys and see if I can get some feedback:

I have load data for .32WinSpl with 150gr jacketed lead bullets. Since .32WS and .32Rem load data is 'interchangeable', I was planning to use the basic .32 WinSpl 150gr data, reduce it by about 10-15% (to compensate for being copper vs jacketed lead)- and work up a load using the copper bullets.

Once that was established, I was planning on using the 'new copper data' for the 32 WinSpl copper load, and use it for the .32Rem. ...again reducing about 5-10% and working those up specifically for his rifle. Aiming for approx 1900-2000 fps. From what I've read, a min of 1900fps is needed for reliability. Hopefully, the loads would work accurately in my .32 Winchester '94 as well as his 32 Remington Model 8 respectively.

I wanted relatively mild loads- good for deer-with reliable feeding / extraction in the self loader- but not stiff enough to stress the steel of his 100+ year old Model 8 Remington (mfg 1910) There's lots of data out there for .30 cal copper, but not the old .32 cal's.

Again, thanks to all!!
 
Use the load data for 170 gr bullets (pretty much standard for 32 Win Special). A lighter bullet would require more powder, but a harder bullet requires less powder, so maybe it will even out. More than likely you will have to increase the load to get typical velocities you are trying to hit.

You can compare 30-30 load data for 170 gr jacketed vs 150 gr jacketed to get an idea of the difference between loads. You can look at 30-30 data with copper bullets to get working loads. I did this a few years ago with a 6mm-06 by using 25-06 load data for similar weight bullets. It's not exactly like trying to develop load data for a totally new cartridge, you are trying to fire a slightly harder, slightly lighter bullet. My guess is you'll be working up to very close to 30-30 150 gr loads, which is why I recommend starting with the 170 loads.

With the Model 8, you will need to load them up to where the loads will reliably cycle the action (remember it's a recoil-operated rifle), so you need the recoil impulse to operate the action. I ran into this issue years ago with my 81 in 30 Remington.
 
you are trying to fire a slightly harder, slightly lighter bullet.
Click to expand...

I'll add this, it's going to be longer, probably has a longer bearing surface and is also "harder".

These are not insurmountable obstacles, but things that should be taken into account. Compare the copper bullets you have with regular cup & core .32 bullets. See where the differences are. All copper bullets will be longer than lead core bullets OF THE SAME WEIGHT. No getting around that. Maybe that means they will have to be seated deeper in the case, to keep within maximum allowable length. You need to find that out...

The rifles you are talking about are old, but if they are in good shape they are not eggshells. Not bank vaults either, but not as fragile as people worry about.

For 150gr copper bullets, I'd take the data for 170gr starting load, reduce it 10% and test. Chronograph and see what velocity you get.

Remember that the rifles survive proof testing, so accidently going a bit over the WORKING pressure standard won't destroy them, unless there the gun is flawed and if it is, its not safe at ANY pressure.

I don't know the nose profile on the bullets you have, but a RN all copper bullet or a small flat point might not be a good idea in the Winchester tube magazine. The Remington, of course, won't care.

Also, for use in the Winchester, its best to use a bullet with a crimp groove, (in the right place!) and properly crimp the bullet (again, due to the tube magazine) If the bullets you've got don't meet those requirements, I'd only shoot them as single shots in a Win 94.

I see no reason you can't get the 2000fps you're looking for with a 150gr bullet, you just have to allow for the differences between conventional and all copper when creating your loads.

Good Luck!
 
CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

PowderApe,

If you provide bullet length and your expected COL, we can use QuickLOAD or GRT to load a published cup-and-core 150-grain bullet maximum to get a simulator peak pressure number, then substitute your bullet length and a solid copper start pressure, and then adjust the powder charge down to get the pressure that matches the first peak value using the same powder. I find this usually is a more accurate way of estimating maximum load data than just accepting the pressures that are based on the powder database. Knocking 10% off the result generally gives a safe starting load.

Using a COL of 2.565 and a bunch of simplified guessing puts the load for a 150-grain solid at about 9% below what a jacketed 165-grain bullet needs, but without actual bullet length and COL, that's close as I can come.
 
While all this load guesstimating is interesting, personally, i'd do as 44AMP suggested & hunt out of state.

Not knowing the design of the bullet is a big draw back.
I looked at Cutting Edge's website. While not having a .321" bullet, i looked at their 110gr ESP Raptor. This has a large hollow point (with available, separate tips that the user can install) and requires a 1,500fps IMPACT velocity to expand properly.

I'd get hold of Maker and ask what impact velocity is needed for their bullet, IF it's an expanding type. Also ask what twist rate is needed to stabalize these to begin with!

You may also want to clean, as in both copper & carbon, out so the barrel is bare steel to start with. There is a difference between copper jackets & mono copper bullets.
 
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