Cop Killer Bullets

M

mongrel66

New member
I remember a few years back when Cop Killer Bullets were all the rage with anti gun people.
My question is "Has a LEO ever been killed by a Cop Killer Bullet?"
Specifics would help...thanks
 
Can't remember the specifics, but the answer is "Yes." But now here's the rest of the story. Up until the time 60 Minutes did the story on them, none had. Within the next few months after airing, several had. Why? Because part of 60 M's coverage pointed out that most LEO's were wearing soft body armor, which hadn't been a secret, exactly, but wasn't widely publicized either. "Head shots" by goblins increased, including at least two with the dreaded "cop killer" bullets. And there you have it, responsible journalism at its finest.

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"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
 
I recall a bullet from France called KTW-Arcane that had a hollow base and a sharp truncated cone point tip that could penetrate soft body armor in the 80s. There was an article on it in an old "Guns and Ammo" if I am not mistaken.

The truth is that any bullet can be a "cop killer bullet" if the LEO doesn't wear his vest. So guys, please wear 'em.
 
Well, looks like the ol' memory has let me down again. If the information written in jimc_617's link is accurate (and I've no reason to doubt it) I had the wrong network, and my guess as to the time frame would have been off by about 7 years. Well, they say the memory's the first to go...

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"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
 
Is this a trick question?

Yes. Any time a LEO has been fataly shot, he was killed by a cop-killer bullet, by simple definition.

Now, depending on YOUR definition, or Sara Brady's definition, or HCI's definition, what exactly makes a bullet a cop-killer bullet?

You could define a cop-killer bullet as any that can penetrate a certain level of soft body armour, but even a lowly .22 rimfire magnum, when fired from a rifle, can penetrate body armour. Just about ANY rifle round can penetrate soft body armor. So are you (or Sara, or HCI, or Mr Bill) implying that we should ban all bullets capable of penetrating soft body armor, or are you/they talking about pistol/revolver rounds that can penetrate? What about T/C Contenders? They are found in 'rifle' calibers, but yet are handguns by definition.

Or you/they could be trying to put a ban on 'smart bullet technology' (similar to smart gun technology) that can diferentiate who/what the bullet is about to hit? Is it a cop, or not?

Now please define 'cop-killer bullet for me so I can try to answer your question.
 
I honestly dont know the definition...I had assumed they were handgun caliber, yet armor piercing...but I dont know for sure..
I had just remembered hearing the world about how evil they were ..and now...nothing...and I kinda wondered why.
 
Cougar beat me to the punch.... in order to ask this question, you need to define "cop killer bullets"....

If your definition is "What 60 minutes was talking about."... you still haven't helped us.


The whole idea is media hype. (note the period)
 
There was a company out of Ohio that was producing handgun ammo that would penetrate hard obsticles, the bullet being tungston carbide with a Teflon(tm) "jacket" that was there to protect the bore. The company was KTW, from the initials of the owners of the company. The ammo was not sold on the general market, at least here in Michigan, but thru LEO dealers. The inventors, all connected with law enforcement, wanted a handgun round that could get to a criminal if he was hiding behind a solid object.

The ammo was on the market for several years and as far as anyone can learn, no LEO had been ever shot with the stuff. The general media learned about the ammo and did a big story about the "Cop Killer" bullets and how it would penetrate the body armor being used by LEO's. Again, until that point, it was not general knowledge that LEO's were wearing body armor. Now cops were being shot in the head by the bad guys because they knew about the body armor. If I remember correctly, there has been only one (1) LEO that was shot with the KTW ammo and that was not thru the body armor but another shot to the head. KTW ammo went off the market, the gun bigots had another catch phrase and that is that.

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"

[This message has been edited by Jim V (edited March 09, 2000).]
 
The orginal story was aired by NBC channel 4 Los Angeles over the objections of thre Los Angeles Police Department and the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department. They literally begged them not to run the story but they did it anyway. After that, the problems cited above escalated.

Now. What is a "cop killer bullet"?

HCI thinks that there are actually handgun rounds that will penetrate body armor so they are hot on the "cop killer" bandwagon. Rifle bullets, on the other hand, can penetrate body armor. .223, .243. .30-06, etc have the power for penetration. Here, though, is the problem we face.

There are these handguns called the Thompson Contender and Remington XP-100 that are chambered for high power rifle ammunition. The barrels are longer than any standard handgun and the guns are single shot bolt-action models. Thus, they are able to expell the fired round at a much greater rate of acceleration and can penetrate body armor. Crooks do not use these firearms as, due to their length and rate of fire, they are not utilitarian to their aberrant needs.

Now, here is my question to you: Even though the Thompson Contender and XP-100 are not used by criminals for the reasons cited above; what firearm do you believe will be used as the benchmark handgun in government tests to determine the penetrating power of various "handgun" ammunition?

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Gun Control: The proposition that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own panty hose, is more acceptable than allowing that same woman to defend herself with a firearm.
 
mongrel66 - I am going to assume that your intentions were honorable when you opened this thread with a seemingly innocent question. If this is the case you can skip reading the next paragraph.

The very term "Cop Killer Bullets" puts the blame on the bullet and not on the person who pulls the trigger. By using this term, you are setting yourself up to be trodden upon. It is a term of our opposition, it is a misnomer, and it really inflames most of us. A bullet is an inanimate object. A "cop killer" is a criminal. To say "Criminal Bullets" makes no sense as an object cannot be innately evil. To use this term is to tip your hand and show yourself to be an 'anti' in disguise. If, however, you have used this term in ignorance, please see the next paragraph. (You shouldn't have been reading this one anyway.)

I think that the reason you haven't gotten the type of responses you expected is that you unwittingly used a term that sets off flashing lights for most supporters of the Second Amendment. As Cougar pointed out, any bullet that causes the death of a Law Enforcement Officer is, by definition, a "cop killer." The real "cop killer" though was the person who pulled the trigger. What you have done is used one of the anti-gun camp's favorite terms: Cop Killer Bullets. Among others are: Assault Weapons, Sniper Rifles, Saturday Night Specials and High Capacity Magazines. Education will lead you to the correct terms which are: (in order) Semi-automatic rifles, bolt-action rifles, affordable/concealable handguns and full capacity magazines. I would advise you to continue to learn more and more about this subject, and keep asking questions to educate yourself. Don't be discouraged if you don't get the responses you expect. You and many others like you can learn from them. That is why The Firing Line is here. Promoting responsible firearms ownership and use through education.

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RKBA!

"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
 
Oh I'm not angry at anyone...I'm just looking at tactics.
High cap mags...cop killer bullets...
HCI or another gun control org will latch on a subject, go less with facts than with emotion. Have it banned for the good of all..and move on to the next one.
right now its trigger locks and smart gun technology..
Its actually hard to argue against trigger locks...most of the what if scenarios involve break ins...but the safety aspect(children) gets bigger points...
there are a few reasons for that I've noticed,but they dont belong in this string.

I guess I just wanted to know if the evil cop killer bullet ever really killed a cop..or whether it was a lot of hype.And what the bullet was so when I was asked I could give an intelligent response.

thats why I posted
 
Mongrel66, Sit back and relax. By HCI's definition any bullet that has killed a cop is a cop killer. What really killed the cop was that their heart stopped beating for whatever reason. The media did educate the gerneral public to the use of body armor by the police and it seems, that of late, the street thugs prefer the head shot on anyone they choose to shoot.
There have been several bullet designs and as far as I can remember an entire cartridge designed to defeat "armor" The TOZ, you will have to gunsmith yourself. The others were not available to the public. The fine Black Tallon ammo etc. is off the market due to the Media, HCI and general hype.
My chain saw is in the shed and it could cause my heart to stop beating if...... It could stop your's if I mailed it to you and you screwed up. They, "HCI FEDGOVBEAURAC WORLD ORDER.COM" are are doing their best to get it all. Take away this and tax that is the real deal my friend.
Off my box,
Hank
 
*There is no such thing as a "cop killer bullet" just as there is no such thing as an "assault weapon".*

If Im not mistaken, all this started over a round called KTW (the last initials of the men that designed it). These guys were former LEOs themselves (at least 2 of them). The bullet itself was brass and Teflon coated. The misconception was that the Teflon let the bullet 'slide' through Kevlar. This was wrong. It was there to prevent barrel wear because the brass was harder than copper.

I dont think there has *ever* been LEO killed by one of these bullets. In fact, those bullets (KTW) were made for LEOs. This was ALL just media hype.
 
I was once accused of having some 'cop-killer' bullets. Back years ago, somebody (S&W or Federal, or whomever) had a line of ammunition caled 'Nyclad' where the bullets were coated with a blue nylon substance. 'That ammunition is illegal' I was told by some people that didn't know any better. The actual bullet was an ordinary 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint. I just happened to be Nyclad.

That is the crux of the matter. The public is NOT educated enough to make an informed decision.

The inflammatory buzzwords of 'cop-killer' and 'assault weapon' and 'Saturday night specials' are meant to appeal to the emotions rather than intellect.
 
Thanks mongrel66 for starting this thread, and to the others for fleshing it out.

My older sister has made the GIANT mistake :)
of asking me to talk about gun control.

I need info such as that posted above so I don't insert my own misconceptions. These also come in handy when some school kids starting asking for references in rebutting the government school teachers who are parroting the HCI line.

I've got a lot of websites to draw from, but always seem to find a new one in these posts.

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The New World Order has a Third Reich odor.
 
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