Cooper on recoil...
- Thread starter BigG
- Start date
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
I was 16 when I got my first .30-'06, a 1917 Enfield. That steel buttplate about beat my skinny shoulder to death! I complained about the "kick", one day, and my own Guru, my uncle, looked at me with that particular expression which told me that I had had another attack of the egregious stupids. (He did that a lot.)
"That gun doesn't kick. That's all in your head, and you better get it out. Hmmph."
Guru speak, disciple listen. Guns don't kick.
They still don't--much...
, Art
"That gun doesn't kick. That's all in your head, and you better get it out. Hmmph."
Guru speak, disciple listen. Guns don't kick.
They still don't--much...
, ArtI have to agree with Mr. Cooper. Its mostly mental. And the rest is form & technique. When I first began shooting 12ga, I always had a visible bruise on my shoulder the day after a box or two of shells. No more. I think that practice, I've become better at mounting the gun properly and "letting recoil happen", rather than resisting it.
First time I shot my .308 much, I had a lousy bench setup. I was hunched over, and the recoil was moving my shoulder nearly parallel to my spine. I got pretty sore. Now, with a proper, more vertical position, I can shoot a lot and not get sore.
I think a proper position and a proper hold go a long way to reducing felt recoil.
First time I shot my .308 much, I had a lousy bench setup. I was hunched over, and the recoil was moving my shoulder nearly parallel to my spine. I got pretty sore. Now, with a proper, more vertical position, I can shoot a lot and not get sore.
I think a proper position and a proper hold go a long way to reducing felt recoil.
Michael Priddy
New member
Kick, What Kick????
It is not all in your head. A lot is in the design of the gun as much as the caliber you are shooting. Light rifles in large calibers will have more recoil than heavy rifles in the same caliber. There is also something about stock design that enhances or retards recoil. My custom stock 30-06 with a steel skeleton butt plate has less felt recoil than my Remington 700 in 270win. with lighter bullets. They both have shelin 26"barrels and weigh with in a quarter lb. of each other. Another factor that ruins a new shooter is muzzle blast. Heavy recoil mixed liberally with muzzle bast is the recipe for a major flinch. Over the years, I have seen more people become unhappy with big bore magnums than sub magnums. As a matter of fact, at the last gun show I attended, the three fellows carrying rifles for sell were all 300win.magums. The reason I don't think many people can get "use" to the recoil is they will not shoot an unpleasant gun enough to ignore the recoil or become proficient. Anyway, this has been my experience. Excuse me while I go reload my 6mm. Which I love to shoot...Michael
It is not all in your head. A lot is in the design of the gun as much as the caliber you are shooting. Light rifles in large calibers will have more recoil than heavy rifles in the same caliber. There is also something about stock design that enhances or retards recoil. My custom stock 30-06 with a steel skeleton butt plate has less felt recoil than my Remington 700 in 270win. with lighter bullets. They both have shelin 26"barrels and weigh with in a quarter lb. of each other. Another factor that ruins a new shooter is muzzle blast. Heavy recoil mixed liberally with muzzle bast is the recipe for a major flinch. Over the years, I have seen more people become unhappy with big bore magnums than sub magnums. As a matter of fact, at the last gun show I attended, the three fellows carrying rifles for sell were all 300win.magums. The reason I don't think many people can get "use" to the recoil is they will not shoot an unpleasant gun enough to ignore the recoil or become proficient. Anyway, this has been my experience. Excuse me while I go reload my 6mm. Which I love to shoot...Michael
WalterGAII
Moderator
I suppose the Col. calls himself a "guru", because he feels that he's about as close to the metaphysical as a human can be.
There's nothing metaphysical or psychosomatic about the pain one feels and the bruises that one incurrs when shooting the thunderboomers. Recoil energy is easily measurable. It's not the same in a .22l.r. as in a .458 Win. Mag.
I don't notice recoil when I'm busy in a dove field, but the bruises on my shoulder at the end of the day tell me that I did endure a little recoil. Regardless of what kind of guru-inspired trance one is able to attain, one will feel recoil, when shooting off a bench.
There's nothing metaphysical or psychosomatic about the pain one feels and the bruises that one incurrs when shooting the thunderboomers. Recoil energy is easily measurable. It's not the same in a .22l.r. as in a .458 Win. Mag.
I don't notice recoil when I'm busy in a dove field, but the bruises on my shoulder at the end of the day tell me that I did endure a little recoil. Regardless of what kind of guru-inspired trance one is able to attain, one will feel recoil, when shooting off a bench.
I actually agree with the Colonel on this. As I shot more I cared about recoil less, but the curved brass buttplate of a 54 cal hawken left me bruised for a week.. a big rat nasty down to the bone kinda bruise that made my LPN go "oh my god" when i took off my shirt. I was pretty sure I had broken something, turns out it was just a deep bruise. i couldn't shoot for 2 weeks. I learned very quickly to adjust my hold on that stock, then decided to buy a new muzzleloader altogether.
My Dad like to varmint hunt for prarie dogs, and always scoffs at my willingness to shoot a 30-06 at them.. he says 'you can't shoot that all day" and I say.. oh yeah?? Its no different than shooting skeet all day.
And a last thought, a 12 guage 1 oz slug at max Dram recoils hard enough in my 870 off the bench that the forearm locks open and kicks the shell out of the port. Still doesn't kick as hard as a 54.
My Dad like to varmint hunt for prarie dogs, and always scoffs at my willingness to shoot a 30-06 at them.. he says 'you can't shoot that all day" and I say.. oh yeah?? Its no different than shooting skeet all day.
And a last thought, a 12 guage 1 oz slug at max Dram recoils hard enough in my 870 off the bench that the forearm locks open and kicks the shell out of the port. Still doesn't kick as hard as a 54.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Aw, c'mon, Walter. I really doubt the good Colonel thinks of himself as any sort of Guru...I guess the appellation was first applied in the earlier days of the Southwest Pistol Leage (if I have that name correct) and a lot of folks stayed with it out of respect for his track record of achievement.
Anyway, in this thread, we're talking more about the *perception* of recoil, rather than actual recoil, are we not? I think we all understand about the fit of a stock, or the difference between .30-'06 downward or upward in "package energy", right? Most of us, anyway.
For a lot of folks, sensitivity to recoil is mental. As commented earlier, some of this is due to the noise; easily cured with HearGuards. Sometimes an outside source is needed to "turn your head around"; for me it was my uncle. For Dr. Rob, it was self-taught training...
Shifting emphasis for a moment: Some are afraid of the kick of a 1911 pistol, based on hearsay. I demo with a Lightweight Commander, with just a round in the chamber. Even the ignorant can understand that lighter = more kick; heavier = less. I aim and shoot, using only thumb and trigger finger to hold the pistol; the example for them is that it does not fly out of my hand.
The same sort of example can be done with rifle or shotgun. After all, most folks operate on an "If he can, I can" basis, which is why folks drive like maniacs leaving Daytona Raceway after the 500.
, Art
Anyway, in this thread, we're talking more about the *perception* of recoil, rather than actual recoil, are we not? I think we all understand about the fit of a stock, or the difference between .30-'06 downward or upward in "package energy", right? Most of us, anyway.
For a lot of folks, sensitivity to recoil is mental. As commented earlier, some of this is due to the noise; easily cured with HearGuards. Sometimes an outside source is needed to "turn your head around"; for me it was my uncle. For Dr. Rob, it was self-taught training...
Shifting emphasis for a moment: Some are afraid of the kick of a 1911 pistol, based on hearsay. I demo with a Lightweight Commander, with just a round in the chamber. Even the ignorant can understand that lighter = more kick; heavier = less. I aim and shoot, using only thumb and trigger finger to hold the pistol; the example for them is that it does not fly out of my hand.
The same sort of example can be done with rifle or shotgun. After all, most folks operate on an "If he can, I can" basis, which is why folks drive like maniacs leaving Daytona Raceway after the 500.
, ArtBadger Arms
New member
Recoil is alot like hard work. The more that you do, the less painful it is. I remember when I first started out as a sheet-metal worker. My hands would be cut open daily, I'd get blisters where I held the drills, and I constantly had sore forearms and hands. After a few years, I noticed I no longer suffered from sore hands and forearms and never had any blisters. The same applies for shooting. The more you condition your shoulder and body to the shooting, the more your body adapts. I remember shooting the 357 magnum for the first time and trying to overcome flinch with that massive round. A Few thousand rounds of 44 magnum full-house loads later, I can't believe the little 357 was ever a problem.
Oh yeah...
I forgot to mention that the stock design has a lot to do with one's perception of recoil. The ol' 54 Hawken and similar have a crooked stock with more drop at heel than comb, that means when it kicks straight back the comb rides back against the ol' cheekbone. Yeeouch!
But, like the Col. and a lot of you observed, it's a matter of training and you learn to live with it.
I forgot to mention that the stock design has a lot to do with one's perception of recoil. The ol' 54 Hawken and similar have a crooked stock with more drop at heel than comb, that means when it kicks straight back the comb rides back against the ol' cheekbone. Yeeouch!
But, like the Col. and a lot of you observed, it's a matter of training and you learn to live with it.
Recoil may be more of a mental perception, but the bruises I get when shooting full-patch Cordite 174gr .303 British loads in my No5Mk1 Jungle Carbine are a definite reminder that the laws of physics still do apply...
(Remind me to never use the little fella for an 84-round High Power match again!)
(Remind me to never use the little fella for an 84-round High Power match again!)
WalterGAII
Moderator
Art: Cooper refers to himself as the "gunner's guru" in his byline. I didn't manufacture that one.
I have a great deal of respect for Col. Cooper. I believe that my dove field analogy was, in fact, in agreement with the perceived recoil idea. I was just making the point that recoil is a real, measurable quantity, and that it's hard to ignore, when shooting static, off a bench.
If Col. Cooper would stop shooting zebras, horses, donkeys, mules, etc., I'd feel even better about him.
I have a great deal of respect for Col. Cooper. I believe that my dove field analogy was, in fact, in agreement with the perceived recoil idea. I was just making the point that recoil is a real, measurable quantity, and that it's hard to ignore, when shooting static, off a bench.
If Col. Cooper would stop shooting zebras, horses, donkeys, mules, etc., I'd feel even better about him.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
mcshot, no argument. As you imply, there are physical ways to deal with it, such as recoil pads--and some of the other comments about shock-absorbing stocks and the shape or fit of stocks.
I think the overall point is that there is a purely mental component for some people. This is where advice or teaching/training, HearGuards, even muzzle brakes, enter the picture. And, just plain old exposure and experience.
Separately: The narrow brass buttplates and extreme drop of early rifles has been mentioned. Does anybody know why they did it this way? And weren't the contemporary military muskets equipped with wider buttplates?
Art
I think the overall point is that there is a purely mental component for some people. This is where advice or teaching/training, HearGuards, even muzzle brakes, enter the picture. And, just plain old exposure and experience.
Separately: The narrow brass buttplates and extreme drop of early rifles has been mentioned. Does anybody know why they did it this way? And weren't the contemporary military muskets equipped with wider buttplates?
Art