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Cooper 80
- Thread starter ctdonath
- Start date
Col. Cooper wrote recently about the price on his Cooper 80 that you get what you pay for. For $2500 plus you should get a 1911 that never misses and never runs out of ammo. Gunsite stuff is sometimes way overpriced. They sell some of the Col.'s books there. Over $20 for a 200+ page paperback. That is a $5-7 book IMHO. They are trying to sell stuff because it has his name on it. I believe they have an inflated view of it's worth. I enjoy some of his writings but he wants the world his way and dismiss's anyone who disagrees. See his Savage vs. Steyr scout rant.
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"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." H.L. Mencken
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"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." H.L. Mencken
I don't care who's name is on the gun. If I want a name on a gun it will be mine or someone close to me. Other than that I think the guns price is competitive with those from Baer, Wilson, Brown, etc. I personally wouldn't buy one, but if I were it would probably be a Wilson Protector or Les Baer Premier II. Not the TOP TOP.
I am taking delivery soon of a Gunsite GSP 2000 for a bit under $1000. Your finances will determine the guns value to you. If you appreciate Coopers name on the pistol, and that has value to you and others if you choose to resell then go for it. I own knives that cost more than my Gunsite pistol, so everything is relative to YOU. I have no doubt the pistol is nice, whether it is as nice or as valuable as a Baer, Wilson or basic Kimber is up to you. For myself, $2500 was too much to spend on a 1911, but I could do better than a Kimber Classic. The GSP 2000 is just right for me, just as the 80 may be for you.
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Aloha!
John
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Aloha!
John
Rosco Benson
New member
Let's be clear about what the "Cooper 80" is. It is a limited-edition (80 pieces), slim-lined, custom 1911, which is meant to honor and commemorate the 80th birthday of the father of modern pistolcraft. A similar pistol, built by any reputable gunsmith would be at least $1,500-$2,000...absent any limited-edition cachet.
The current (Sept/Oct 2000) issue of AMERICAN HANDGUNNER has an advertisement for an American Historical Foundation 1911, embellished with rattlesnake-motif engraving and stocks. It costs $2,095. It commemorates nothing in particular and is, apart from its cosmetics, a stock Colt.
Now, I have no plans to purchase a Cooper 80 (just looking at the abbreviated tang makes the web of my hand hurt), but I would MUCH rather have a Cooper 80 than the silly rattlesnake-motif 1911. One is a useful tool, the other is a dust-collecting what-not.
As to the silly notion that a book's worth ought be measured by its page-count or type of binding; did it ever occur to you to consider the book's worth based on it's content? I would rather have ONE book by Jeff Cooper than an entire library full of books by inferior authors. As to the notion of Cooper being opinionated; He is quite opinionated and has arrived at those opinions after careful and studied consideration. One may not agree with his opinion on a given issue, but one cannot fault the rigor with which that opinion was formed or suggest that his defense of it is less than articulate and well-reasoned. Personally, I think many of Cooper's critics are offended by the fact that he HAS opinions and will state and defend them. This can cause hurt feelings in the age of the wimp.
As to the notion of trading on Cooper's name; Very little of this has been done over the years. During the dark days when Rich Jee owned Gunsite, the Gunsite raven logo was used to promote all sorts of gizmoes, but this was the work of Rich Jee, NOT Jeff Cooper. Now that Gunsite is owned by Owen Mills...by all accounts an honorable man...I think you will see less of this sort of smarmy commercialism. While Cooper has promoted certain weapons that he had a hand in conceptualizing (the Bren X and the Steyr Scout), one never sees him in an ad, endorsing any product, nor does one often even find a brand name mentioned in any of his writings. No, Cooper is no shameless self-promoter. He is a great man, who has advanced the state of the art of weaponcraft with his life's work.
Rosco
[This message has been edited by Rosco Benson (edited July 26, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Rosco Benson (edited July 26, 2000).]
The current (Sept/Oct 2000) issue of AMERICAN HANDGUNNER has an advertisement for an American Historical Foundation 1911, embellished with rattlesnake-motif engraving and stocks. It costs $2,095. It commemorates nothing in particular and is, apart from its cosmetics, a stock Colt.
Now, I have no plans to purchase a Cooper 80 (just looking at the abbreviated tang makes the web of my hand hurt), but I would MUCH rather have a Cooper 80 than the silly rattlesnake-motif 1911. One is a useful tool, the other is a dust-collecting what-not.
As to the silly notion that a book's worth ought be measured by its page-count or type of binding; did it ever occur to you to consider the book's worth based on it's content? I would rather have ONE book by Jeff Cooper than an entire library full of books by inferior authors. As to the notion of Cooper being opinionated; He is quite opinionated and has arrived at those opinions after careful and studied consideration. One may not agree with his opinion on a given issue, but one cannot fault the rigor with which that opinion was formed or suggest that his defense of it is less than articulate and well-reasoned. Personally, I think many of Cooper's critics are offended by the fact that he HAS opinions and will state and defend them. This can cause hurt feelings in the age of the wimp.
As to the notion of trading on Cooper's name; Very little of this has been done over the years. During the dark days when Rich Jee owned Gunsite, the Gunsite raven logo was used to promote all sorts of gizmoes, but this was the work of Rich Jee, NOT Jeff Cooper. Now that Gunsite is owned by Owen Mills...by all accounts an honorable man...I think you will see less of this sort of smarmy commercialism. While Cooper has promoted certain weapons that he had a hand in conceptualizing (the Bren X and the Steyr Scout), one never sees him in an ad, endorsing any product, nor does one often even find a brand name mentioned in any of his writings. No, Cooper is no shameless self-promoter. He is a great man, who has advanced the state of the art of weaponcraft with his life's work.
Rosco
[This message has been edited by Rosco Benson (edited July 26, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Rosco Benson (edited July 26, 2000).]
Dear Roscoe,
I read 4-5 books a month and listen to 3-4 more on tape (I commute 150 miles a day). Too many big words isn't the problem. I do have a library of approximately 300 books and yes some of them are from Jeff Cooper. I read mostly history books and historic novels. I enjoy reading Cooper but he is not my idea of a top writer. I read his columns also but his rants about the best of this and that is a bit too much. He spins a good adventure yarn and I have read many books that his writings have prompted me to investigate. As to your suggestion that page count and binding do not contribute to a books cost and that content should be the sole cost basis; that would make the Bible or Shakespeare worth about $5000 per copy. The binding and the page count are what determines a book's price after you pay the writer. These aren't priceless tomes for crying out loud. I agree with you he is the father of modern pistolcraft just not a famous author. His books prices don't reflect that. But it is a free country, if you wish to worship at his feet, by all means, do so.
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"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." H.L. Mencken
I read 4-5 books a month and listen to 3-4 more on tape (I commute 150 miles a day). Too many big words isn't the problem. I do have a library of approximately 300 books and yes some of them are from Jeff Cooper. I read mostly history books and historic novels. I enjoy reading Cooper but he is not my idea of a top writer. I read his columns also but his rants about the best of this and that is a bit too much. He spins a good adventure yarn and I have read many books that his writings have prompted me to investigate. As to your suggestion that page count and binding do not contribute to a books cost and that content should be the sole cost basis; that would make the Bible or Shakespeare worth about $5000 per copy. The binding and the page count are what determines a book's price after you pay the writer. These aren't priceless tomes for crying out loud. I agree with you he is the father of modern pistolcraft just not a famous author. His books prices don't reflect that. But it is a free country, if you wish to worship at his feet, by all means, do so.
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"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." H.L. Mencken
Rosco Benson
New member
BillX,
Apparently, at about the same time as you were posting your well-reasoned response, I reconsidered my "too many big words" and "not enough pictures" comments and edited my original message to delete them and to attempt to better communicate my point. I apologize for the smart-aleck comments. They were rude. I was slightly annoyed, but that is no excuse. Sorry.
Tastes vary, but I think Cooper is an excellent writer and, by far, the best in his field. As to the pricing of his books; one must consider the relatively limited print runs. They aren't going to sell like a Stephen King or Tom Clancy potboiler. I'm just glad that the new Gunsite owner has gotten some of his books back into print. It's like when a small publisher puts out long-unavailable stuff like Frederick Russel Burnham's or the Deneys Reitz's books...one doesn't quibble about the price...it's just great to see them in print.
Besides which, if one picks up something from one of Cooper's books that helps him stay alive or even helps make a hunting trip successful, the the cost of that book was dirt-cheap. I don't worship at the feet of any man, but I am not ashamed to admit that I admire Cooper greatly.
Rosco
Apparently, at about the same time as you were posting your well-reasoned response, I reconsidered my "too many big words" and "not enough pictures" comments and edited my original message to delete them and to attempt to better communicate my point. I apologize for the smart-aleck comments. They were rude. I was slightly annoyed, but that is no excuse. Sorry.
Tastes vary, but I think Cooper is an excellent writer and, by far, the best in his field. As to the pricing of his books; one must consider the relatively limited print runs. They aren't going to sell like a Stephen King or Tom Clancy potboiler. I'm just glad that the new Gunsite owner has gotten some of his books back into print. It's like when a small publisher puts out long-unavailable stuff like Frederick Russel Burnham's or the Deneys Reitz's books...one doesn't quibble about the price...it's just great to see them in print.
Besides which, if one picks up something from one of Cooper's books that helps him stay alive or even helps make a hunting trip successful, the the cost of that book was dirt-cheap. I don't worship at the feet of any man, but I am not ashamed to admit that I admire Cooper greatly.
Rosco
I respect, and even like, Cooper, but he looses sight of us working guys from time to time.
Considering how much most of us (me included) have blown on guns & gizmos, most of which we rarely use seriously, the price really isn't that far out. If it weren't for the anti-gun legislators making my guns so much more valuable over time, I'd sell half of them and buy one really good gun that I'd really use. But that's just me (and since we ARE facing goofy new gun laws, I'll just let those ugly things keep rising in value, both monitarily and practically).
I enjoy some of his writings but he wants the world his way and dismiss's anyone who disagrees. See his Savage vs. Steyr scout rant.
Those opinions have solid foundations. If you have a well-formed opinion, he is eager to listen - if you're willing to field fitting scrutiny.
As a Steyr Scout owner, I certainly see its advantages. It was worth the cost. But that's another discussion...
While I've seen much well-constructed discussion about the "scout rifle" and the SS, I've seen little about the "ideal pistol" - even from Cooper - and am wondering how close the Cooper 80 is to that ideal. Having seen $3000 tricked-out semi-custom M1911s, and knowing that anything embodying Cooper's conclusions is worth a close look, $2500 isn't all that bad. I was just hoping someone here might have some extra insight on this particular pistol.
Considering how much most of us (me included) have blown on guns & gizmos, most of which we rarely use seriously, the price really isn't that far out. If it weren't for the anti-gun legislators making my guns so much more valuable over time, I'd sell half of them and buy one really good gun that I'd really use. But that's just me (and since we ARE facing goofy new gun laws, I'll just let those ugly things keep rising in value, both monitarily and practically).
I enjoy some of his writings but he wants the world his way and dismiss's anyone who disagrees. See his Savage vs. Steyr scout rant.
Those opinions have solid foundations. If you have a well-formed opinion, he is eager to listen - if you're willing to field fitting scrutiny.
As a Steyr Scout owner, I certainly see its advantages. It was worth the cost. But that's another discussion...
While I've seen much well-constructed discussion about the "scout rifle" and the SS, I've seen little about the "ideal pistol" - even from Cooper - and am wondering how close the Cooper 80 is to that ideal. Having seen $3000 tricked-out semi-custom M1911s, and knowing that anything embodying Cooper's conclusions is worth a close look, $2500 isn't all that bad. I was just hoping someone here might have some extra insight on this particular pistol.
Rosco Benson
New member
We did stray pretty far from the original question, didn't we? All I know about the Cooper 80 is what Gunsite has posted on their website. Based on that, there are several features that I either don't need or have differing preferences.
I don't need the slim-lining. I have big hands and, though I prefer slim stocks, I have no need for thinning down the frame.
I don't care for red front sight inserts. I prefer plain black or a tritium dot.
I prefer to have a high-sweep beavertail grip safety. The shortened tang of the Cooper 80 would most likely be uncomfortable for me.
I do like the idea of a mainspring housing that incorporates a projectionless lanyard loop.
I could (and have) commision a qualified gunsmith to build me a 1911 which would suit me better than the Cooper 80. However, I would still MUCH rather have a Cooper 80 than one of the silly "instant colector's item" pieces like the rattlesnake-motif 1911 mentioned earlier.
Rosco
I don't need the slim-lining. I have big hands and, though I prefer slim stocks, I have no need for thinning down the frame.
I don't care for red front sight inserts. I prefer plain black or a tritium dot.
I prefer to have a high-sweep beavertail grip safety. The shortened tang of the Cooper 80 would most likely be uncomfortable for me.
I do like the idea of a mainspring housing that incorporates a projectionless lanyard loop.
I could (and have) commision a qualified gunsmith to build me a 1911 which would suit me better than the Cooper 80. However, I would still MUCH rather have a Cooper 80 than one of the silly "instant colector's item" pieces like the rattlesnake-motif 1911 mentioned earlier.
Rosco