Controlability, accuracy and recoil of the Kel-Tec P-11?

M

martin6

New member
I am considering the purchase of a Kel-Tec P-11. I have never shot this gun or any other gun like it (9mm, light weight, small frame, short (no pinky) grip). My concern is about it's "shootability"; how it handles when fired, controling shot placement, accuracy, and recoil. The closest thing to it I have fired is probably a Makarov (which I love to shoot). I also shoot a S&W 642. It bites a bit, but is still fairly accurate and controlable to me.
Let me ask another way too. If a Glock 17 is a "10" on the shootability scale and the S&W Scandium .357 is a "1" on the shootability scale, where does the P11 fall? (Please note: The G17 and the S&W scandium snub are just for illustration purposes. I have no opinion, good or bad about these two guns)
So what's your take on the P11?
 
If you've shot a revolver a lot, you should have only limited problems with the P-11.

Early models were horror-stories about reliability, but they seem to have gotten their act together over the past couple of years.

I had a P-11, and carried it as my primary CC weapon for almost two years. Punching paper, when I had time to really concentrate on the trigger, it was very accurate. Doing a "fluff and buff," as described on several different web sites, you'll find the trigger smooth and predictable. The gun is reliable.

But a LONG, DOUBLE ACTION ONLY trigger of about 8 pounds was more than I could really manage. Other shooters do NOT have problems, and shoot them well.

I find Makarovs MORE unpleasant to shoot; ditto the S&W 642, if you're shooting anything the least bit hot.

You could do worse. Using your scale, I'd rate it a 7 or 8, depending on your real goals. If concealability (using 10 round mags) was really important, along with light weight, I'd probably give it a 9... (Or 8 1/2).

(Incidentally, you can use S&W Model 59 mags, which will hold 15 rounds; and that extra mag length does [not] really make concealability all that much worse... A spacer is available from Kel-Tec, to make the full grip length smooth.)
 
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I had to send my P-11 back to K-T because of feeding and extraction problems. They replaced my barrel and recoil spring at no cost. I believe the spring was too weak. My P-11 still won't feed Winchester White Box, whose bullets are slightly longer and shaped slightly differently from, say, Remington ammo, which feeds fine.

The recoil is somewhat stiff but not harsh and fully controllable. This is what you get when you fire the sprightly 9 MM round from a 14 oz. auto.

My accuracy is poor with DAO pistols, in comparison with my success with double action, single action pistols. I jerk the K-T down when I pull the long, heavy trigger. But this isn't a target gun and I think the trade-off is worth it.

Once you are sure the pistol is reliable, you have a very good carry weapon for close-up use. Carries very well in your front pocket (in a pocket holster). I don't believe that the P-11 really has competition, taking into account its calibre, weight, size, mag capacity, and cost. I consider the long, heavy DAO trigger a valuable safety feature.

Drakejake
 
I've shot my wife's 642 as well as my G17, and I can compare them to my P11.

The 642 is snappier than the P11 IMO, but the trigger is better. My G17 is a lot more comfortable to shoot, but the P11 is a lot more comfortable to carry :).

I don't find recoil or muzzle flip to be a big issue with the P11. The trigger is long and hard, but I've been told that it can be improved with some work. I like the trigger as is, since I carry the gun in a Smartcarry holster.

Accuracy is decent for a short range, defensive gun.
 
The P-11 trigger is long but not really all that heavy, supposed to be 8.5 lbs. If you are a tinkerer, several people have posted some modifications that they have done to their triggers to lighten them at the P-11 & P-40 forums at the "Bulletin Board" link at:

http://www.ktog.org

Note: this site is down (as of 1-15-02 4:45 PM CST) for maintenance.

Also, the trigger shoe available from Kel-Tec is helpful to some. See the P-11 accessories link:

http://www.kel-tec.com

Also see the trigger stop modification at the "Tec Werks" link at ktog.org. It is basically a pencil eraser superglued to the back of the trigger guard. Crude, but quite effective. Most use a black magic marker to color the eraser black so it looks like part of the gun and not a pencil eraser glued to the back of your trigger guard!

The P-11 is not a target pistol, was designed for close range shooting and concealed carry.
 
I pretty much agree with the posts above. The P-11 requires practice and a little patience until you get used to it but once you do it`s not bad at all. The trigger is long but not heavy (much lighter than a Mak,at least the ones I`ve shot). I`ve done all the tricks to mine,which all help a little but I shoot a bone stock one just about as well. I`ve found that the 2 most important things are to pull the trigger through smoothly and deliberately without trying to stage it and to treat it with a heavy hand (or better yet 2) in rapid fire. It`s so light it doesn`t have much inertia to dampen muzzle flip and recoil so you have to hold it down by force. Using these tips I can usually shoot my lil Keltec as well in drills out to say 15yds. as my friends can with their full sized guns,I just have to work a lot harder for it! ;) IMO it`s more than worth the effort though for the power:weight/size ratio the Keltec has. I also LOVE the factory belt clip BTW. I know some others have had reliability problems with theirs but FWIW mine has *well over* 7000rds. through it without a hitch. Marcus
 
kel-tec 9

the little 9 is my primary carry piece.i was at the range today shooting 125gr +p loads.not hard kicking.my practice load is 115gr fmj using vv3n37.i have done the rubber trigger stop and fluff and buff.i can shoot accurate with this gun and the trigger pull does not bother me.i like the website other people spoke of.i also own a kel-tec 32.both are great.you can install finger rests on the mag bottom to give you better control.i have never regretted buying these handguns.
 
I have a P11 and like it a lot. It is reliable and reasonably accurate. I'm now used to the long, heavy trigger so it doesn't bother me much (though it obviously isn't as easy to shoot accurately as guns with lighter triggers). But every time I let someone else try it, they take forever to fire that first shot (aim...squeeze...squeeze some more...wonder if it's ever going to go off...squeeze some more...glance at me...squeeze some more...wonder if the safety's on or something...squeeze some more...BANG!). I guess you just have to get used to it. If you get one, be sure to give it a fair chance - once you get used to it, it isn't bad. And I think the size, weight, and ergonomics are great.

Doug
 
P11 tales of woe....

My P11 was a lemon. I had all sorts of problems with light strikes, failures to feed/eject, regardless of the ammo. Sent it back to Cocoa, FL the first time for this. Still the same problems. Sent it back a second time and they practically replaced the entire gun except the handle. This time it shot waaay left. I finally sold it because I simply could not trust it. The thing pinched my trigger finger unmercifully, ejected hot casings all over my head and scuffed up my shooting hand with the very abrasive diamond checkering on the handle.

Before you all think I'm down on Kel Tec, I know most of the P11's are reliable weapons and with TLC, they are formidable up-close self defense pistols. I also own a P32 which is my all-time favorite carry gun. Fantastic shooter.

Yes, I do plan to buy another 9mm but this time it will be something from the Kahr line of fine pistols.
 
Kahr? Get ready to send it back as well. Way overated and not worth the money. You would be better with a Sig 239 for the same amount of money. Personal experience here not heresay.
 
Mine was relatively comfortable (more so than the Makarov) and accurate enough (2 1/2" at 21ft) BUT ejected into my face and KT couldn't fix that. They bought the gun back from me after several back-and-forths to the factory. THe other problem is that heavy trigger lead to hand tremors after 100 rounds.

I preplaced it with a (lighter, flatter, more accurate) Kahr P9 at twice the price and have been happy with it since.
 
I would also put the P-11 at about "8" for shootability. It is not as good as the Glock; the P-11's longer trigger pull makes it a bit harder to shoot quickly, accurately. But with practice you will get used to the trigger and you'll be able to shoot it well.

Recoil is not bad. Less than I expected, given the light weight of the pistol. Controllability is good.
 
I would rank the P11 more like 5 for shootability.
The recoil is hard to ignore.

I could shoot 100 rounds with no problem, but my 18 year old son would get hand fatigue so bad that he couldn't pull the trigger after 3 magazines. (Long and hard trigger pull.)

I have had two P11s.
Love the size, weight, capacity, and price.
Hate the trigger, accuracy, recoil, reliability, ammo sensitivity.
Even after all of the "fluff and buff" could never learn to like the trigger.
I like to shoot 100 - 200 rounds per month, and I didn't like shooting the KelTecs. Never got used to the trigger, accuracy, (lack of), recoil, etc.
-Side note: After I sent my last one for repairs for the 3rd time, it came back with the rear sight laying in the box by itself. -Cool!-
A little Super Glue, and I'm back in action. :barf:

I just got a Kahr MK9, and while it is heavier, (maybe 8oz.?) and more expensive, (2x), it has a beautiful trigger, and is a pleasure to shoot. Also super accurate, and much better quality.
Did I mention the sweet trigger? :cool:

If you get a KelTec, and are lucky enough to get one that works, just make up your mind that you are going to make yourself learn to shoot it.
(The KelTec P32 has an excellent trigger. Similar to the Glock or Kahr. Several of us have wondered why KelTec didn't come out with a P11 with a smooth trigger. Guess we'll never know.)

Dougb:
aim...squeeze...squeeze some more...wonder if it's ever going to go off...squeeze some more...glance at me...squeeze some more...wonder if the safety's on or something...squeeze some more...BANG!).
Click to expand...
That is excellent. LOL!
Perfectly accurate.

I like to have fun when I go to the range, and for me, the P11 was no fun.

JP
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Will Beararms: Good grief, you must have really bought a lemon of a Kahr! I've never shot a Sig but have friends who swear by them. Problem is, I can't get a 239 in my pocket which is my prerequisite for any defensive handgun. The smaller Kahrs just drop in my pocket holster and disappear. I'm aware of the teething problems with their new polymer-handled "covert" line. Still, the satisfied Kahr owners seem to be a majority, from my point of view. Thanks for sharing.
 
The P-11 takes alot of practice to shoot well. I put at least 100 rds a week thru mine and have become pretty accurate with it, but I'm still better with almost every pistol I own. I've noticed several things with mine. A slip on grip does a lot to soften that 30 grit plastic grip. A heavier recoil spring is a good thing. A pinky extention is a better thing. I've heard of lemons, even witnessed a couple (dad just bought one and he swears it won't fed jhp's, guess I'll have to fix it for him) but mine just doesn't jam. My son and I ran a full case of wolf thru it in a one day range session and only had 5 jams. And all of those came later in the day and I'm pretty sure they came from the wrist being a bit weak. I wish I could say it was my son's wrist. Long story short, the gun did fine, but I couldn't make a fist or open my hand fully for several days.
 
Mini14jac, sounds like you got a bad one as far as accuracy goes. Mine shoots 2-3" groups at 45 feet, from a rest. So the pistol is plenty accurate. Learning to shoot offhand accurately does require some practice.

Did yours by any chance have the older 10lb(?) trigger spring? The newer 8lb spring does make the trigger nicer.
 
Dave R,
I've had two, both with the 8 lb spring.

I've owned two, and rented one over six years.
I suppose that any of them would have done the job on man-size targets, but with a Glock or Kahr, the accuracy is in a whole different league.
The last one that I owned was the only one that I worked on. I did every fluff and buff and trick imaginable. The trigger was still horrible. It would not feed Wolf.
Recoil was no fun either.

I'm not knocking people who love their KelTecs. We have two P32s that we shoot regurlarly.
I am just one of many voices saying that I would pay more for a better product. (Just bought a Kahr. :D )

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On the Kahr vs. Keltec issue, I`ve tried my Keltec vs. a Kahr K-9 Elite back to back and the results suprised me. The Kahr is a *much* nicer looking and feeling gun. The trigger is SWEET and the grip feels really good! The sights are also better than the Playschool sights on the P-11. I fully expected to shoot circles around my P-11 with it. I was somewhat suprised that I didn`t shoot it all that well,better than the P-11 from the bench but not much. Hmmmm. I put over a hundred rounds through it trying to get "into the groove" and it got better but I still wasn`t happy with my performance shooting it. I could tell (or I thought I could) the gun could shoot better but it just wasn`t happening. So I went to some fast close in "combat drills" with someone starting and timing me. Suprise again! I actually shot faster and better with the Keltec. Not that I shot bad with the Kahr,just better with the P-11. I went away convinced it was ME and not the K-9 that caused it to do worse. Since then I`ve shot it several more times and I still do just as well with the old P-11. I still don`t get it. Now the Kahr wears and Optima 2000 in a custom EGW mount and I finally shoot it better and faster than the P-11...but not much. Go figure! :) The Kahr Elite sure is a darn SWEET gun though! Marcus
 
Glock, Kahr, P-11 are all FINE small carry pieces.

I have all three and my Kahr is wonderfully accurate and heavy as a brick. The Glock 19 is more comfortable and almost as accurate and I have several hi-cap mags for the Glock. The P-11 is almost weightless and SMALL... it is almost as accurate BUT it requires more practice for me to keep my basics IN. The small, light, long trigger pull... little bugger makes all of my imperfections magnified.

Sooo. The Kahr is for sale. The Glock is by the Bed. The P-11 goes in the pocket when I'm in the woods. I got some S&W magazines for the P-11 and they were not 100% reliable in it so I sold them.

I had a P-11 and a P-40 and a P-32 in the past that were ALL three POS. I recently got a NEW P-32 and a NEW P-11 and they are both PERFECT. I believe, from lots of reading, that KT had severe quality problems in the past and has them fixed now.

I would NOT buy a used KelTec more than a couple of months old and the older ones were more prone to problems.

So, all in all... I give Glock a 9.9, and the KelTec a 9.9 as well but use them for different purposes. The Kahr is a fabulous pistol but even though VERY accurate was just too heavy for me -- for such a small pistol.
 
I have to give a thumbs up to my P11. Bought it...went to KTOG.com....did the puff and fluff....hogue grip jr...trigger shoe with locktite....eraser for trigger stop..and pinky holder on mag. I'm a dummy..took me about a hour..maybe a hour and a half. Never tried it before I did all this. BUT...I can tell you that I have had NO problems and that it is more than acceptably accurate. Yes...must get use to the trigger....but you have to do that with every gun...whether it's too soft or too hard or too long.
I will use it one week in IPSC...I believe in shooting what I carry. Last week I used my Sig 239 .40....when I have the money to buy a few more mags..I'm going to give it a run.
 
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