Contemplating a Battle Rifle...

N

Nightcrawler

New member
...and by that I mean a .308 caliber semiauto with a detachable box magazine. I have numerous options. I'm leaving out the cost issue, as almost all of these rifles are pretty pricey, but they're almost all "keepers" too Off the top of my head:

-Springfield Armory M1A
-DS Arms FAL
-Armalite AR-10
-Robinson Super VEPR
-HK G3 Clone
-Spanish CETME

Alright. I've rulle dout the G3 clone and the CETME, as neither appeal to me. Now.

I want a compact rifle, so the specific models I'd want are as follows (with the exeption of the Super VEPR, which only comes in one size, but is so damned cool looking). I'm also listing the pros and cons of each rifle as I see them.

Springfield M1A Carbine 18"

PROS: Accurate as all heck, extremely well made, rugged, reliable, aftermarket preban magazines are extrmely abundant. Same sight picture as M16, more or less.

CONS: Smallest sized model has an 18" barrel, and its lack of a pistol grip stock gives it longer overall length.

DS Arms FAL 16" Light Carbine

PROS: Preban magazines are in abundance, accurate, extrmely well made, reliable.

CONS: Don't truly care for the left-hand side mounting of the FAL's charging handle. I don't know if DSA FALs lack bolt hold-open devices like the parts guns do

Armalite AR-10A4 Carbine 16"

PROS: It's just cool to me for some reason. Same sighting system as M16, which I am familliar with.

CONS: 20 round magazines are damned near impossible to find, and when you locate one, they cost almost a hundred dollars.

Robinson Super VEPR

PROS: Based on reliable AK design. Rugged, unique, cool looking.

CONS: I have no idea if pre ban 20rd magazines even exist for this rifle, but think that if they do, they're rare. Very rare. Also, can't get it in carbine length.


SO...

Any suggestions? The purchase, either way, will not be soon. We're talking months down the road, probably next year some time, and my Marlin 1894G in .45-70 comes first.
 
there are no preban mags for the Vepr (its a 1999 design) One of the AK gurus modified one to accept 20 round .308 galli mags

20 round mags of .308 are heavy

dZ
 
I think it would be a toss up between the M1A Carbine and the AR10.

I have heard some talk of reliability problems with AR10's but if you get one 100percent reliable, you will have a great rifle. You can free float the barrel and add a handguard with rails capable of carrying optics, fore end pistol grips, lighting systems and other assorted goodies. Basically the same setup as the fancy AR15's you see.

As for the M1A Carbine, it is a great rifle. I do not care for the forward scope mounts for a scout type or long eye relief scopes. Obvious advantages of these over some of the other choices are both of these rifles..the AR10 and the M1A are factory new weapons, not milsurp parts put on a new
reciever. The M1A type action is battle proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, attesting to its reliability and durability. I can't say that for the AR10.

So if I had to make a choice..it would be the M1A with a conventional scope mount.

Good Shooting
RED
 
Another thing to consider

Another thing to consider is muzzle velocity (and thus ballistics and "terminal" velocity). Using surplus ammunition, you can expect approximately the following:

2700-2800 fps from a 21" barrel.
2500-2600 fps from a 18" barrel. (I have chrono'd both of these).
2300-2400 fps from a 16" barrel. (extrapolated from above numbers).

The AR-10 and M1A probably have the most potential for accuracy. I don't know how accurate the M1A scout can be.

The most important factor influencing the quality of any FAL is how well it was built. There are a bunch of other gunsmiths who can assemble you a high-quality FAL. FAL magazines are still dirt-cheap. The FAL is not very ammo-sensitive, with the tunable gas system.

I have a friend who has the .308 VEPR, and he loves it. It is, however, a bit of a different animal that the M1A or AR-10. I have no info on the Super VEPR, however.

Are you going to want to mount optics? That might influence your choice. An AR-10 flat-top will be the easiest to mount on, secondly the FAL, M1A scout, and probably lastly the VEPR (I think the Super has a rail? Not sure.).

Anyway, I hope this somewhat random information helps. I personally prefer the FAL. They are clean (as opposed to the AR-10), have cheap mags, are easy to work on, and there are tons of spare parts out there. But that's just my preference.

-z
 
DSA Carbine

DSA (apparently) has the bolt hold-open. PRO: allegedly of the highest quality. CON: definately of the highest cost.

My battle rifle just arrived at my FFL: DSA 'parts gun' (STG-58).

Mike
 

Springfield M1A Carbine 18"

PROS: Accurate as all heck, extremely well made, rugged, reliable, aftermarket preban magazines are extrmely abundant. Same sight picture as M16, more or less.

CONS: Smallest sized model has an 18" barrel, and its lack of a pistol grip stock gives it longer overall length.


You left out the fact that M14 mags are very expensive, that aftermarket mags mostly suck and that it is very complicated to field strip.


DS Arms FAL 16" Light Carbine

PROS: Preban magazines are in abundance, accurate, extrmely well made, reliable.

CONS: Don't truly care for the left-hand side mounting of the FAL's charging handle. I don't know if DSA FALs lack bolt hold-open devices like the parts guns do


The DSA (and all other well made FAL clones) do have bolt hold open. This would be my first reccommendation.


Armalite AR-10A4 Carbine 16"

PROS: It's just cool to me for some reason. Same sighting system as M16, which I am familliar with.

CONS: 20 round magazines are damned near impossible to find, and when you locate one, they cost almost a hundred dollars.


Inaccurate. You buy USGI M14 mags and send them in to have Armalite convert them. Can take a couple months, but if you buy the used USGI mags that Coles has for about $35, you wind up with preban 20 rounders at about $60 each. If you get the AR10, get the chrome barrel one, as the stainless ones are finicky about ammo.



SO...

Any suggestions? The purchase, either way, will not be soon. We're talking months down the road, probably next year some time, and my Marlin 1894G in .45-70 comes first.


I would get the battle rifle now. More preban mags are bought up every day and they won't get any cheaper.
 
Get the DSA Lightweight FAL. Then get tons of $8 20-round mags. The left-handed cocking handle takes some getting used to, but after using it for a while I prefer it to any other option.

The M1A would be my second choice. The AR10s and VEPR's lack of full-cap magazines make them a distant third and fourth. I also understand that the Armalite-built AR10s are not the most reliable guns out there.

Later,
Chris
 
FWIW.

I find the FAL charging handle very ergonomic. I hold the gun in my right hand by the pistol-grip and the leverage is just right -- much easier than the G3/CETME forward lever, or the M1A's right-handed operation, IMO.

-z
 
I'll also vote for the FAL. I'd also seriously consider a FAL from one of the well respected smiths, like ARS or AZEX, in addition to the DSA version.

All, with the exception of low end Century metric FALs, have a bolt hold open device. Even those and inch guns can have the device re-enabled.
 
FAL

I'll probably end up getting the FAL. I had a parts gun version for a very short time, and didn't like the left handed cocking lever (being a lefty), and the peep sight was too small, but it's probably the best choice out there.

I can't get it now, though. I need to pay my college tuition and get the brakes fixed on my car.
 
My DSA "parts gun"

Holy smokes. I just got the thing (literally, 30 minutes ago).

This gun is, like, nice and stuff. I have not yet shot it, but...wow. If any of the parts are used, I certainly can't see which ones. The bore is perfect.

For $800, thats what I'd get.

Mike
 
Or maybe...

Last year I spent much time thinking this decision over. I finally decided to go with a Styer Scout for my "battle rifle". The reasons were 1) Ease of operation (Light, points well, easy to mke hits with) 2) Reliability 3) Familiarity with bolt actions (not having to learn a new manual of arms) This things seemed to fill most of my qualifications. If I ever needed to put down a bigger field of fire than that, I'd be in so deep that I doubt that a semi-auto would pull me out. FWIW
 
Battle Rifle

If I am ever fighting for freedom at night, I hope my friend next to me is not using a short barreled high power rifle with no flash suppressor. I'd rather the enemy not know exactly where to aim the machinegun/grenades/mortar etc.

Pros and cons to everything, including carbines vs rifles.
I wonder if the M1A flash suppressor really works.
 
Christopher II said: "The AR10s and VEPR's lack of full-cap magazines make them a distant third and fourth."

Can't comment about the VEPR, but as far as the AR10 lacking full-capacity magazines, that's incorrect. I've got 6 twenty-round AR10 mags in my safe at home. They're just converted M14 mags. As long as you can get M14 mags, you can get full capacity AR10 mags. They're not cheap and from time-to-time Armalite gets back-ordered on doing the conversions.

I have an AR10A4 -- 20" barrel with flat-top and removable carry handle. I have an M1A with the standard 22" barrel. My FAL clone was built by a local gunsmith using a like-new STG-58 parts kit and the required DSArms US-made parts.

I can't say that I would want a shorty-version of any of them. In my mind, the point of a battle rifle is to reach out and touch someone. If I want something short and handy, I'll grab my Valmet M76. Or a shorty AR. I also have no desire to hear the muzzle blast from a 16" .308 barrel. YMMV.

AR-10

I like the ergonomics of the AR-10 best. I prefer the push-button mag release over the push-in and turn system used by the others. The M16-style safety fits right where your thumb can comfortably reach it. Scoping the gun is easy, given the flat-top upper. Mine has been quite accurate, even though I have the cheaper barrel. Do get the National Match 2-stage trigger. It's very nice. I'm not as keen on the magazines -- some fit the mag well very tightly, some are a bit sloppy. I don't like the muzzle brake. It's very noisy, it's unnecessary, and it makes it harder to clean the barrel (patches tend to get hung up in the brake). Nice M16-style sights.

FAL

Lots of folks say the FAL is the best thing since sliced bread. I've got one and have to say I don't agree with them. Not at all. The sights suck. I don't like the push-in and twist mag change system. The receiver is overly long, putting the fore-end way, way out there. I'm not a shrimp (5' 9", 32" sleeve length), but the fore-end is just too far out to comfortably shoot it off-hand. The trigger is very, very heavy, and few people know how to work on them. Don't turn the gas regulator open too far, or you'll end up with the cartridge case jammed between the dust cover and the bolt. Had lots of fun unjamming that. Yes, the FAL is reliable and mags are cheap. Take down is very easy. But it's overly long and overly heavy. It feels like a big boat oar in my hands. Very unwieldy. If you scope it, then you can't remove the dust cover, making it harder to clean.

M1A

The M1A just fits me the best of all three. It's nicely dimensioned and balanced for offhand shooting. It's reliable. The trigger is very nice (and lots of folks know how to work on the trigger). I don't like the push-in and turn mag change system. I'm not a big fan of the location of the safety, though it is easy enough to reach. Sights are great. Mags aren't cheap, but are available. Scoping one isn't fun. Good scope mounts are expensive, not particularly easy to install correctly, and you'll probably need to put a pad on the buttstock. Take down is more complicated than either the AR10 or FAL. You have to clean the barrel from the muzzle end.

Of the three, I like the M1A best, followed by the AR10, with the FAL bringing up the rear (a long way behind). For using with iron sights, I'd take the M1A. For scoping, I'd take the AR10. YMMV.

M1911
 
Barrel length and other things...

I have no intention of using said rifle for combat against anything other than old video cassettes, cans of beans, and so forth. So it's military utility is moot. It's just for fun and because I want one. Same reason AR-50 owners want a .50 browning rifle.

A flash suppressor is not designed to reduce the muzzle flash at night from the enemy's perspective, as doing so would be nearly impossible. It's designed to prevent muzzle flash from blinding the firer at night. Since I don't shoot after dark, the point is more or less moot.

I want a short barrel. I do not care for overly long rifles. I have little taste for anything with a barrel longer than 20". It's just the way I am. I don't have any sort of real rifle range around here, and honestly don't care if I can get MOA accuracy or not. If I can hit a man sized target at 300 yards with iron sights, I'm satisfied.

As for a bolt action battle rifle: I have one. A Nagant M1944, bayonet and all. :D I'd be interested in a Gibbs Enfield Jungle Carbine, too, but should I get it in .308 or .303 British?
 
M1911, permit a response:

FAL 20-round magazines cost $8-12 bucks apiece. It's a real trick to find an AR10 twenty-rounder for under $60.

I must be the only person in the world who likes the sights on the FAL. They're simple, they don't break, and they let you get hits on a man-sized target out to 300+ yards (longest I've tried.) If the rear peep is too small (common complaint,) just drill it out with an 1/8" drill bit.

The tilting mag system is better, IMHO, than the AR15 shove-in-straight system. Reason being, that tilting the mag in provides a more positive tactile lock-in. I've lost count of the number of times I've shoved in an AR mag, only to have it fall out of the gun at the first shot. You can avoid this by always pulling down on the mag after seating, but with the FAL, you don't have to.

Too long? Well, that's a judgement call, but for me, the 18" barrel FAL balances just right. I also like the position of the controls more than on the AR10 (the charging handle on the AR is a bear to use from low prone.)

The FAL trigger is !NOT! hard to work on. Everybody says this, and it just isn't true. I polished up the trigger on my pieces/parts Century gun using India stones and a Dremel tool with a hard felt polishing wheel, and it now has a five-pound pull that is silky-smooth. This was the first time I ever adjusted the trigger on a firearm.

According to factory specs, the Standard 21" DSA FAL is two inches longer and half a pound lighter than the 20" AR10A4.

As for the M1A, I don't have a huge amount of experience with it. It seems well-built and reliable, but it's longer than the FAL or AR10, and heavy. Mags can also be tough to hunt down. Ask me again tomorrow, I'm going out to shoot one then.

Later,
Chris
 
One point left out of the discussion:

The M1A has the built-in stripper clip charging device, which makes reloading the 20-round magazines much easier. That is, if you're not using an optics system that precludes this.

There's also the cheap, easy-to-use clip adaptor which fits onto the magazine itself.

Just considering options - - -

Best.
Johnny
 
Christopher II said:

"FAL 20-round magazines cost $8-12 bucks apiece. It's a real trick to find an AR10 twenty-rounder for under $60."

Well, before you said:

"The AR10s and VEPR's lack of full-cap magazines make them a distant third and fourth."

To me, that implies you can't get full-cap magazines for the AR10. If you'd have said they are expensive, I'd have agreed with you.

Regarding the magazine change system, sorry but I can't agree with you there. I find the push in and rotate to be slower and MUCH more fumble prone than the AR15. All you have to do with the AR15 is give insert it firmly.

The issue with the weight of the FAL isn't so much overall weight as balance. It just doesn't balance for me.

No big deal. We agree to disagree. That's why there's so many rifles to choose from...

M1911
 
M1911 - Yeah, I could have been clearer when I made that statement. I meant to say that AR10 mags are expensive and tough to find, not that they don't exist.

Anyway, disagreement is hearby agreed upon. ;)

(Psst! Get a FAL!!)

Later,
Chris
 
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