Confusion of terms.

D

dahermit

New member
When It comes to posts about double-action triggers on revolvers, it would seem that there is some ambiguity when it comes to the term "smooth". Several posters say their double-action triggers are smooth, but I suspect they mean "light" as in easy to pull. With all the S&W double-actions I have owned, there have been only rare instances in which I could feel any roughness, just heaviness with the stock guns.
So, are my suspicions correct in that some here are using "smooth" when they actually mean "light"?
 
Hmm. I always figured if they said it was NOT smooth that it was 'gritty'. Like parts with rough edges on them or something like having sand in the works.

It will be interesting to see what response you get.
 
Smooth is the lack of gritty, binding, dragging...Well, I can't tell you, but I know it when I feel it.

Light is something else.

I'm not a trigger snob. Most of them feel pretty much the same to me.

But when I find a really GOOD one, I can tell it.
 
I have shot revolvers for over 30 years and didn't understand the difference either until last month when I had a local smith "clean up" the trigger on my S&W 642. It only went from a 12# pull to an 11#, so it certainly isn't light, but it has lost all of the drag and grab I wasn't even really aware it had. All I can say about it now is that it is smooth. Poor way to describe it but it just is.
 
I always consider three different attributes when speaking of DA triggers: weight, smoothness, and consistency. Weight is the simplest in that it refers to how much pressure I must exert to pull the trigger. Smoothness is, as the OP describes, the presence or absence of any grit or roughness in the pull of the trigger. Consistency refers to what is more commonly known as "stacking": whether or not the trigger pull becomes noticeably heavier as it approaches the breaking point. Smoothness and consistency can be hard to distinguish from one another because they often go hand in hand: the smoother the trigger the less it usually stacks and vice-versa. Obviously the lighter, smoother, and more consistent the trigger pull, the better but if I had to rate them in order of importance I would probably go with the following order: smoothness, consistency, weight.
 
...if I had to rate them in order of importance I would probably go with the following order: smoothness, consistency, weight.
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I respectfully disagree. As I see it, the first priority is weight because one must get the hammer back to fire the gun. All the S&W's I have bought over the years had very heavy trigger pulls...too heavy to shoot effectively. If you do not have the strength to effectively overcome the heavy pull, smoothness and consistency are of little importance. The lighter the trigger-pull the better you can shoot...as evidenced by the fact that most people with D.A. revolvers just use the single action mode for their shooting.

As a matter of course when I get a new S&W, I do a complete trigger job. I examine the lock-work for any roughness, watch the hammer fall to see if it hits the frame or wobbles from side to side (most do out of the box, should be shimmed), smooth the hammer bosses on the frame (they always have machine marks). I polish the rebound slide, both outside and inside where the rebound spring slides. I clip two coils off the bolt spring, swap out the factory springs with the graduated kits as sold by Brownel's. I smooth the appropriate parts of the D.A. trigger, swap out the trigger for the widest available. Then I test fire, test fire, test fire.

The difference I get between the as-shipped product and what I end up with is remarkable...no because of my modifications necessarily, but because if you get a new S&W (other than from their custom shop), they, as I have experienced, are assembled without any consideration for a quality trigger, just assembled from parts and tested solely for the ability to fire, called good and shipped. As far as I can see from the roughness, hammers striking the frame, out of time, etc., you are on your own if you actually desire proper fitment.

Although my primary concern is a light D.A. trigger, the rest of the work I have done on my guns has resulted in a light, smooth, trigger pull and if there is any stacking...if it stacks, it is the result of the design of the hammer spring and with a smooth pull-though of the trigger, not a significant issue with a S&W.
 
When It comes to posts about double-action triggers on revolvers, it would seem that there is some ambiguity when it comes to the term "smooth". Several posters say their double-action triggers are smooth, but I suspect they mean "light" as in easy to pull. With all the S&W double-actions I have owned, there have been only rare instances in which I could feel any roughness, just heaviness with the stock guns.
So, are my suspicions correct in that some here are using "smooth" when they actually mean "light"?
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I suspect a lot of people are just not careful, unclear, or don't know what they are talking about when they post on the Internet.
 
I use the term "smooth" to describe trigger pull the same way that webleymkv does, although I usually use the term "linear" to describe a trigger with a consistent weight of trigger pull from start to break.

I would probably value linearity highest, or at least a trigger that does not stack excessively toward the end of the trigger press, or even worse, one that has a "camel hump" trigger in which resistance is greatest during the mid-portion of trigger excursion and then lightens up before the break. I would find this type of trigger hardest to shoot well in DA.

I agree that an excessively heavy trigger pull is also hard to shoot well DA but that can usually be solved or improved with a mainspring change. There is a lot of room for grittiness in the DA trigger pull of a revolver since there is so much going on. In addition to cocking back and releasing the hammer the cylinder latch has to be disengaged, the pawl (or hand) has to engage the star and rotate the cylinder, then the cylinder latch has to be released usually to ride the cylinder until it locks up, and the transfer bar has to be engaged or disengaged.

That is a lot of moving parts with the potential to add friction in addition to the mainspring and trigger return springs being compressed. Fortunately, a gritty trigger pull can usually be improved by polishing up the internals.

As an aside, I think that some degree of "stacking" is going to be inevitable on any revolver that utilizes a coil spring mainspring (like Rugers) as opposed to a flat, leaf spring. Coil springs resist compression more forcefully the more they are compressed. It is just a consequence of the design.

I guess we could throw "trigger creep" into the mix, but that is more often applied to single action triggers.
 
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I agree with Webley's comments...

I consider almost all of my S&W revolvers..in double action - to have smooth ( non stacking ) triggers / but I have older models of ...model 18's, 27's, 28's, 29's...and 66's, 686's and 629's.....they are not "light" / like they are in single action.
 
but I suspect they mean "light" as in easy to pull.
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And you would suspect wrong.
There is "smooth", and there is light. Both coexist in describing a DA trigger pull. As does gritty, or rough, and heavy. The worst being gritty and heavy (my 1895 Nagant). The best being smooth and light (my late 1970's S&W 10-5)
Lots of things in between. The new Charter Arms Bulldog DAO I just bought has a fairly light pull, but was somewhat gritty. It is however getting smoother with lots of dry firing, but not any lighter.
 
Smooth and light are two different things.

Smooth is the gradual build up of pressure. If you were to put it on a graph, you would get a steady build up with no spikes (think hokey puck).

Light means the amount of pressure to work the trigger.
 
No, smooth is smooth, a pull that has no sudden jerks. It might not be of consistent pressure. Colt DA's usually "stack" meaning that the DA trigger pull becomes harder as the trigger moves back, but they are very smooth. The average Model 1873 "trapdoor" Springfield has a very hard trigger pull, but it too is generally smooth.

Some guns, on the other hand, have trigger pulls that feel like a potholed road, with bumps and scrapes and jerks. They might well be light, but it is very difficult to shoot well with them.

Jim
 
I have a 3-inch 686 that I had Rick Devoid do a DAO mod to about 20 years ago. It is the definition of butter smooth. It pulls between 11.5 and 12 on my Lyman trigger gauge. It's not light but it is smooooooth.
 
I was one of the guilty ones talking about "Smooth"

I was not talking about "Light" [spring pressure]

Tuning and polishing all the internal bearing surfaces [including inside of the frame/sideplate, hammer, trigger, transfer bar, etc] where ever they interacted with an adjacent part or surface was the practice back then to get a "smooth consistent" DA pull.

We NEVER lightened the main/hammer spring tension on any duty revolver.

As a department firearms instructor/armorer I couldn't count the number of Smiths that went throughout my hands during the 70s and 80s. Most were decent right out of the box, some needed a burr here or there taken care of and that was as far as it went.

Some of us went to the trouble of mirror polishing and even engine turning all of the bearing surfaces including the inside surfaces of the frame/sideplate.

Those were smooth guns…. Same spring pressure but the difference in feel and "shoot ability" were apparent to any one who picked one up. I still have two of them, one of which is still my daily duty weapon. [Yes I am a dinosaur and am holding out for two more years to hit the 40 mark before I pull the plug] That one is a 1978 S&W Model 10 2" and has had the "treatment".

The rest of the lads and lasses here now give me a ribbing at every qualification and are incredulous at times that I have the temerity to run the full course with it all DA.

Long winded but I did actually mean smooth, no stacking, no hitches or grinds.

Mike
 
For one thing, I can't tell much difference, one way or another between a S&W 686 and a Ruger GP100, even with factory triggers. With a different spring set, I can tell that the GP100 feels better.. Some will swear that there's a ton of difference; I just can't seem to tell it..

What I can tell you is where the far worse triggers are at; look at nearly every .22LR pistol that I've ever handled. Even the SA/DA .22LR pistols tend to be outright crappy, whether it be SA or DA. Heavy trigger pulls of DA only guns- I do hate because it seems to cause me to pull off the target. Especially here, I can feel the grittiness that others speak of; and the heavier than normal trigger pulls that some will critique.. I guess that the easiest way to feel the difference is probably to get those in the extremes. Take a gun, and compare it to something you think is on the opposite..
 
All the S&W's I have bought over the years had very heavy trigger pulls...too heavy to shoot effectively.
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While I won't disagree with you, personal ability and personal standards play a large part.

I am reminded of the scene in the 13th Warrior, Herger, a northman, tosses Ahmed (the "arab", a smaller man) a rather large sword, which Ahmed nearly drops. He says, "I cannot lift this!" Herger's laughing reply is, "Grow Stronger!"


I'm not much of a DA shooter. Never was, never will be. Never had any of my DA revolvers worked on, smoothed, or lightened in any way. Until I was about 30, no matter what I did, it seemed I could barely hit the proverbial barn from the inside. One day, that just changed. I could hit the 1 foot plate I shot at (30yds) six for six DA (slow fire). No change to my gun or to me (that I recognized.) I'm "old school" in this (or perhaps more accurately, I'm a dinosaur),but for me, DA shooting is like a parachute in a plane, or the handbrake in a car, for emergency use. (note, I didn't say "only". If you want to skydive, go right ahead!;))

Weight is the actual measurable weight it takes to move the trigger through it full travel. "Smooth" to me is the quality of the movement, and I include consistency in that.
 
I am reminded of the scene in the 13th Warrior, Herger, a northman, tosses Ahmed (the "arab", a smaller man) a rather large sword, which Ahmed nearly drops. He says, "I cannot lift this!" Herger's laughing reply is, "Grow Stronger!"
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Fantastic movie and book.:D
 
Sometimes it becomes very clear when you shoot similar guns side-by-side. I have several 1911s, which I only recently took to the range all at once. One trigger that I thought was pretty smooth and light when shooting it by itself was noticeably heavier and rougher than another, as an example. Not so much as to be a problem in a SD situation, but definitely enough to show when shooting bullseye. Now I want to take it apart and smooth the surfaces and see if I can clean it up. I probably won't lighten the trigger, but if I can smooth it out I will be happy. I do think that a smooth trigger can feel lighter than a grittier but lighter trigger. I know that a different contour to the trigger (such as the wide Model 29 trigger) can also make for a lighter feel.
 
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