Confused...ammunition?
- Thread starter boxjeff
- Start date
boxjeff, ACP is an acronym for Automatic Colt Pistol. 25 auto is the same as 25ACP. Ammunition that is marked +P means "Plus Pressure" and is loaded to exceed the SAAMI pressure specs for that particular ammunition. Alot of folks think that +P means Plus Power when in fact it means Plus Pressure ( and this often equates to more power as a result )
Hope this helps
Hope this helps
The guy that invents the cartridge puts his name on it ! So we have 25acp [automatic Colt pistol] or 44 Remington magnum, etc.So .25 acp and .25 auto are the same . The +P or even +P+ designations are higher than normal pressures and velocities. Some times however the +P and +P+ are just PR hype. For example there is no .40+P as SAAMI doesn't define it. SAAMI does define 9mm+P but not 9MM+P+.
I haven't used Magsafe ammo in a pistol. It's very expensive as presumably you have noticed. I read one authority saying it should not be used in cheap pistols; it's like +P that way I guess.
To carry a defense load, for me it usually has to run at least 100 rounds through the chosen gun with no malfunctions. Cost has led me to reduce this requirement from 200 rounds; others insist on even greater proven reliability.
To prove that Magsafe works in your pistol with any confidence would cost you hundreds of dollars. It's a very light "bullet" so may not work the slide well in some pistols also, though for blow-backs like the Beretta and Taurus .25s this may not be a problem.
I would skip the Magsafe in pistols. OK for revolvers, which take many fewer rounds to show proper functioning.
To carry a defense load, for me it usually has to run at least 100 rounds through the chosen gun with no malfunctions. Cost has led me to reduce this requirement from 200 rounds; others insist on even greater proven reliability.
To prove that Magsafe works in your pistol with any confidence would cost you hundreds of dollars. It's a very light "bullet" so may not work the slide well in some pistols also, though for blow-backs like the Beretta and Taurus .25s this may not be a problem.
I would skip the Magsafe in pistols. OK for revolvers, which take many fewer rounds to show proper functioning.
.25 ACP = .25 Automatic Colt Pistol.
.25 Auto is a contraction, by dropping the "Colt Pistol" and abbreviating "automatic".
For small pistols in the .25 to .380 caliber range, I tell people to simply use full metal jacketed or round-nosed lead bullets if they are an option. Few of these small pistols generate the necessary velocity to reliably expand a hollow-point bullet and still penetrate deep enough to disable an attacker. But almost all of them should be reliable with FMJ (aka "ball") ammo.
The .25 auto is no great shakes as a man-stopper. Hopefully you realize this from the size of the gun and cartridge. Learn the soft, vulnerable spots on the body and/or places where a bullet will cause your attacker sufficient problems to break off his attack -- i.e. the instep of the foot or the kneecap. The best method is to use the .25 to delay his pursuit of you while you are running out the door into the night.
.25 Auto is a contraction, by dropping the "Colt Pistol" and abbreviating "automatic".
For small pistols in the .25 to .380 caliber range, I tell people to simply use full metal jacketed or round-nosed lead bullets if they are an option. Few of these small pistols generate the necessary velocity to reliably expand a hollow-point bullet and still penetrate deep enough to disable an attacker. But almost all of them should be reliable with FMJ (aka "ball") ammo.
The .25 auto is no great shakes as a man-stopper. Hopefully you realize this from the size of the gun and cartridge. Learn the soft, vulnerable spots on the body and/or places where a bullet will cause your attacker sufficient problems to break off his attack -- i.e. the instep of the foot or the kneecap. The best method is to use the .25 to delay his pursuit of you while you are running out the door into the night.
Bill DeShivs
New member
The Winchester pellet-nose .25 is good stuff. It penetrates and expands.
HEAVYDUTY77
Inactive
Fiocchi ammunition
The problem with any HP ammunition in .25 ACP (6.35mm Browning) is its lack of penetration. I don't trust anyone's HP bullet to develop enough steam to get the job done. Even the FMJ bullet is marginal at best. If you research loads for this caliber you'll notice that most .25 ACP FMJ ammunition will produce energy of 64 ft.lb. @ 760 fps using a 50 grn bullet out of a 2" barrel.
Another issue with these smaller caliber pistols is their sensitivity to various brands of ammunition. You may want to try several before deciding on one to use on a regular basis.
I do have a 25 ACP BUG that I carry on occassion and use only Fiocchi FMJ ammunition. The Fiocchi ammuntion is a bit "hotter" and produces 71 ft.lb. @ 800 fps with the same 50 grn bullet and 2" barrel. This is their standard loading (not considered +P). (Unless your barrel is stamped +P or the manual permits the use of +P I would definitely not use it.)
(By the way, LuckyGunner.com has the Fiocchi ammunition available at a reasonable price at this time.)
The problem with any HP ammunition in .25 ACP (6.35mm Browning) is its lack of penetration. I don't trust anyone's HP bullet to develop enough steam to get the job done. Even the FMJ bullet is marginal at best. If you research loads for this caliber you'll notice that most .25 ACP FMJ ammunition will produce energy of 64 ft.lb. @ 760 fps using a 50 grn bullet out of a 2" barrel.
Another issue with these smaller caliber pistols is their sensitivity to various brands of ammunition. You may want to try several before deciding on one to use on a regular basis.
I do have a 25 ACP BUG that I carry on occassion and use only Fiocchi FMJ ammunition. The Fiocchi ammuntion is a bit "hotter" and produces 71 ft.lb. @ 800 fps with the same 50 grn bullet and 2" barrel. This is their standard loading (not considered +P). (Unless your barrel is stamped +P or the manual permits the use of +P I would definitely not use it.)
(By the way, LuckyGunner.com has the Fiocchi ammunition available at a reasonable price at this time.)
Mike Irwin
Staff
"The guy that invents the cartridge puts his name on it !"
If that were true, then the cartridge would be known universally as the .25 Browning Auto given that John Browning designed the cartridge and Sam Colt was dead for over 40 years when Browning did so.
Hell, Browning didn't even design the .25 for Colt - he was working for Fabrique National in Belgium when the cartridge was designed.
If that were true, then the cartridge would be known universally as the .25 Browning Auto given that John Browning designed the cartridge and Sam Colt was dead for over 40 years when Browning did so.
Hell, Browning didn't even design the .25 for Colt - he was working for Fabrique National in Belgium when the cartridge was designed.
I don't think there really is a +P for .25 ACP.
IIRC it is not one of the calibers that has a SAAMI standard for +P. So any manufacturer who loads what he calls +P has no defined upper limit for pressure.
That alone would make me hesitate to shoot that .25 ACP +P ammo.
If I am wrong in the above statement, please let us all know.
Bart Noir
Who just generally would hesitate to even own a .25, being perfectly able to handle .32 and .380 ACP.
IIRC it is not one of the calibers that has a SAAMI standard for +P. So any manufacturer who loads what he calls +P has no defined upper limit for pressure.
That alone would make me hesitate to shoot that .25 ACP +P ammo.
If I am wrong in the above statement, please let us all know.
Bart Noir
Who just generally would hesitate to even own a .25, being perfectly able to handle .32 and .380 ACP.
chris in va
New member
It would help if you could tell us the make of pistol you have.
Sometimes the guy who invents the cartridge gets to put his name on it. Most of the time, the name comes from the company that markets it first. Or from some other factor.
Cartridges that were introduced during the black powder era often included the powder charge in the name, but not always (.32-20, .44-40, etc.)
The .25 Auto, .25ACP and the 6.35mm Browning are all the same cartridge. >25 auto is generic, .25ACP is what Colt calls it (and most other people), and 6.35mm Browning is its name in Europe.
The vast majority of .25acp pistols are small blowback operated autoloaders. The action is not locked shut, only held shut by the inertia of the slide and the tension of the recoil spring. There is a (fairly low) practical limit to the pressure this kind of action can safely handle, in a given size. It is much less than the pressure the cartridge could be loaded to in a locked breech action.
.25 Auto is the smallest common centerfire pistol round, with the least amount of energy. It will kill. But it does not have a good reputation as a fight stopper, compared to larger rounds. Better than no gun at all, but not as good as bigger guns for defensive use.
Cartridges that were introduced during the black powder era often included the powder charge in the name, but not always (.32-20, .44-40, etc.)
The .25 Auto, .25ACP and the 6.35mm Browning are all the same cartridge. >25 auto is generic, .25ACP is what Colt calls it (and most other people), and 6.35mm Browning is its name in Europe.
The vast majority of .25acp pistols are small blowback operated autoloaders. The action is not locked shut, only held shut by the inertia of the slide and the tension of the recoil spring. There is a (fairly low) practical limit to the pressure this kind of action can safely handle, in a given size. It is much less than the pressure the cartridge could be loaded to in a locked breech action.
.25 Auto is the smallest common centerfire pistol round, with the least amount of energy. It will kill. But it does not have a good reputation as a fight stopper, compared to larger rounds. Better than no gun at all, but not as good as bigger guns for defensive use.
During the decade of leisure suits and disco music, it seemed like someone got popped with a .25 Auto almost every weekend at some club or outside a party somewhere. I can't recall a fatality with one though.
From observation it was apparent that there are places not to shoot someone with a .25 Auto, especially if they're heavy or muscular. A couple of guys walked into ER with .25 rounds lodged in muscles - pectorals, biceps, buttocks, latisimus, and thighs. A couple of fat guys stopped 'em too, before internal organs were damaged.
The skull is hard enough to deflect the .25 Auto, even at contact distances. Two suicide attempts uncovered this way. One guy fired three times with the FMJ sliding under the scalp and lodging. Imagine that Excedrin headache!
The guys we found who were disabled by the popguns typically had hits in working joints -- the instep of the foot was particulary hobbling and the knee. The wrist and shoulder not so much but the elbow often caused them to break off their actions. One guy outside a club tried to commit a rape and his victim fired one under the front of his jaw vertically. Messy. When we arrived he was sitting upright bleeding profusely. He sneezed the bullet out after it passed through the soft tissue, tongue pallate and into his nasal passage.
The nearest to a fatality I can recall is the guy who assaulted a woman outside a party. Tried to get her into the dark of bushes. She stuck the gun between his legs and pull the trigger. Twice. We thought he was a DOA for a moment, lying in the fetal position with lots of blood. She'd missed his femoral artery, but hit the Iliac vein instead. At the hospital it was discovered that the other bullet had elmiinated his chances at parenthood.
The problem with the small calibers is that you are armed with a deadly weapon, but unable to defend yourself. -- Jeff Cooper
From observation it was apparent that there are places not to shoot someone with a .25 Auto, especially if they're heavy or muscular. A couple of guys walked into ER with .25 rounds lodged in muscles - pectorals, biceps, buttocks, latisimus, and thighs. A couple of fat guys stopped 'em too, before internal organs were damaged.
The skull is hard enough to deflect the .25 Auto, even at contact distances. Two suicide attempts uncovered this way. One guy fired three times with the FMJ sliding under the scalp and lodging. Imagine that Excedrin headache!
The guys we found who were disabled by the popguns typically had hits in working joints -- the instep of the foot was particulary hobbling and the knee. The wrist and shoulder not so much but the elbow often caused them to break off their actions. One guy outside a club tried to commit a rape and his victim fired one under the front of his jaw vertically. Messy. When we arrived he was sitting upright bleeding profusely. He sneezed the bullet out after it passed through the soft tissue, tongue pallate and into his nasal passage.
The nearest to a fatality I can recall is the guy who assaulted a woman outside a party. Tried to get her into the dark of bushes. She stuck the gun between his legs and pull the trigger. Twice. We thought he was a DOA for a moment, lying in the fetal position with lots of blood. She'd missed his femoral artery, but hit the Iliac vein instead. At the hospital it was discovered that the other bullet had elmiinated his chances at parenthood.
The problem with the small calibers is that you are armed with a deadly weapon, but unable to defend yourself. -- Jeff Cooper
Must have been the mid-70's; I was living in Chicago.
An Air Force officer was accosted, then shot with a 25. Bullet was stopped by his Class A button, and the BGs ran off screaming they'd tried to rob Superman.
Bullet was recovered on the sidewalk.
Officer reported he had minor bruising from the button.
An Air Force officer was accosted, then shot with a 25. Bullet was stopped by his Class A button, and the BGs ran off screaming they'd tried to rob Superman.
Bullet was recovered on the sidewalk.
Officer reported he had minor bruising from the button.
tackdriver
New member
YMMV, but I did quite a bit of research on this about a year ago. I didn't find any common fmj .25 round that had any more or less umph. They were all loaded almost exactly the same, including the Fiocchi. The Fiocchi IS loaded hotter than most in the .32 acp round.
As for magsafe, the design is intended to make the bullet fragment inside a target, leaving all the energy inside the target to ensure there is no overpenetration. That's fine, but it also can mean that energy is dispersed before the round sufficiently penetrates -- especially when you have a low energy round like the .25
Beware the "it bounced off" stories. I know of one actual incident during an attempted carjacking in Cincinnati within the last 10 years where a guy was shot in the head with a .25 acp and the bullet failed to penetrate his skull. It didn't kill him, but he wasn't putting up much of a fight afterward. A baseball bat probably won't penetrate your skull, but are you going to stand still and let someone wack you with it?
On the other hand, I do know first-hand of a murder committed with two .25 rounds to the chest. Again, there was no zombie-like caterwomping around after the guy was shot. He crumpled and died.
I know of one fatality from the 25acp. Someone was shot in Rome, NY, (ab08t ten years ago) with a 25acp. He walked across the street to a convenience store to ask for help. They called police who came and called an amublance. The man died from the wound, but the shot did not stop him. Fatal shot, yes, but not a stopping shot.
Fatal but not Stopping......
Stories like this abound about the .25acp. The bullet can be stopped (or significantly slowed) by lots of things we commonly wear, but the bullet can also penetrate enough to be fatal just as well. IF things line up just right, even rifle bullets have been deflected or stopped, but its not something you can count on, even for the little .25acp!
The reason its still on the market, after over a century. The guns it comes in are as small as guns get (and fire more than one or two shots), and sometimes, it does work. When the mere sight of a gun is all thats needed to end a situation, it works pretty well. When more is needed, its effectivness goes way down.
My source says the 6.35mm (.25auto) came to the US in 1908, and had been sold in Europe "several years earlier". I don't recall any big celebration of its birthday, like there was for the .30-06 or the 9mm Luger. When the .45 turns a century mark, it'll be in all the gun mags! Call the .25 Rodney, it don't get no respect!
And there's a reason for that......
and yes, I know the .45acp was designed in 1905, but it is 1911 that is most associated with it, and that'll be enough for the writers!
Stories like this abound about the .25acp. The bullet can be stopped (or significantly slowed) by lots of things we commonly wear, but the bullet can also penetrate enough to be fatal just as well. IF things line up just right, even rifle bullets have been deflected or stopped, but its not something you can count on, even for the little .25acp!
The reason its still on the market, after over a century. The guns it comes in are as small as guns get (and fire more than one or two shots), and sometimes, it does work. When the mere sight of a gun is all thats needed to end a situation, it works pretty well. When more is needed, its effectivness goes way down.
My source says the 6.35mm (.25auto) came to the US in 1908, and had been sold in Europe "several years earlier". I don't recall any big celebration of its birthday, like there was for the .30-06 or the 9mm Luger. When the .45 turns a century mark, it'll be in all the gun mags! Call the .25 Rodney, it don't get no respect!
And there's a reason for that......
and yes, I know the .45acp was designed in 1905, but it is 1911 that is most associated with it, and that'll be enough for the writers!
ChileVerde1
New member
Most small pistols are generally less reliable than there larger counterparts just because of the engineering compromises they have to make to create such a small weapon. The best ammo choice for you would be whatever feeds most reliably in your pistol. We could argue penetration, stopping power, etc..., but the .25acp is so small and due to it's inherent reliability issues it makes all the other ammunition choice arguments moot.
Buy a bunch, or as many examples as you can afford, of different good quality ammo types and see which operates most reliably in your pistol. If it's an FMJ (full metal jacket) that feeds most reliably, then that's what I'd carry. Don't get sucked into the marketing gimmicks of "specialty home defense ammunition" or "ultra specialized urban warfare defense ammo" and other ridiculous labels or claims of enhanced stopping power or whatever. It matters even less in the smaller calibers. I mean sure, in larger calibers I'd use a quality JHP over an FMJ, but all the hype of +p and ++p, specialized hollow points, etc..., you just shouldn't buy into. Like the other members said, stay away from +p, especially if your weapon isn't rated for it.
Any good quality round will work and in a .25acp, an fmj would be fine, some may argue even better, because of its ability to defeat clothing in an otherwise anemic round. Aside from that, just practice and place your shots well and your chances of prevailing in any armed encounter will increase significantly. Proficiency will help you survive 10X more that any insanely expensive and cleverly marketed round will. Wallmart often carries 50rd to 100rd boxes of good quality JHP Remington and Winchester ammo for 45acp and 9mm. If they had the same for a 25acp that would be a good start.
Buy a bunch, or as many examples as you can afford, of different good quality ammo types and see which operates most reliably in your pistol. If it's an FMJ (full metal jacket) that feeds most reliably, then that's what I'd carry. Don't get sucked into the marketing gimmicks of "specialty home defense ammunition" or "ultra specialized urban warfare defense ammo" and other ridiculous labels or claims of enhanced stopping power or whatever. It matters even less in the smaller calibers. I mean sure, in larger calibers I'd use a quality JHP over an FMJ, but all the hype of +p and ++p, specialized hollow points, etc..., you just shouldn't buy into. Like the other members said, stay away from +p, especially if your weapon isn't rated for it.
Any good quality round will work and in a .25acp, an fmj would be fine, some may argue even better, because of its ability to defeat clothing in an otherwise anemic round. Aside from that, just practice and place your shots well and your chances of prevailing in any armed encounter will increase significantly. Proficiency will help you survive 10X more that any insanely expensive and cleverly marketed round will. Wallmart often carries 50rd to 100rd boxes of good quality JHP Remington and Winchester ammo for 45acp and 9mm. If they had the same for a 25acp that would be a good start.
HEAVYDUTY77
Inactive
Tackdriver,
Regarding the slightly "hotter" loading of the Fiochhi .25 ACP cartridges, I obtained the information directly from the Fiochhi Online Catalog. Using a 2" barrel, their .25 ACP cartridge is listed as having 71 ft.lb. vs. 64 ft.lb. energy published by other manufacturers. Not really that big a difference but, hey, who knows when that little bit extra might help! (Better to just carry a larger caliber pistol in the first place!)
Here's the Fiochhi link for those interested: http://www.thedigitaleditiononline.com/publication/?i=30230
Once there, go to the "Contents" Tab then click on "Pistol & Revolver Tables" (page 20)
Regarding the slightly "hotter" loading of the Fiochhi .25 ACP cartridges, I obtained the information directly from the Fiochhi Online Catalog. Using a 2" barrel, their .25 ACP cartridge is listed as having 71 ft.lb. vs. 64 ft.lb. energy published by other manufacturers. Not really that big a difference but, hey, who knows when that little bit extra might help! (Better to just carry a larger caliber pistol in the first place!)
Here's the Fiochhi link for those interested: http://www.thedigitaleditiononline.com/publication/?i=30230
Once there, go to the "Contents" Tab then click on "Pistol & Revolver Tables" (page 20)