Concealed Carry Scenario question

B

Bartholomew Roberts

Moderator
OK, I am curious as to how people would work out the following scenario.

You are driving your car and for whatever reasons, you lapse in concentration a moment and have an accident. The driver of the other car gets out and approaches your car. Thinking you don't wat to be trapped inside the car, you get out to meet him.

He is silent as he approaches you but visibly angry. He is of alightly smaller stature than you are (i.e. you think you could take him in a fair fight; but he would probably get in some good licks). As he closes to contact distance to exchange information, he strikes you closed-handed. You are carrying a weapon on your person.

The relevant laws concerning concealed carry follow:

You may only use the gun in self-defense in cases in which you fear death or serious injury.

If you aren't justified in using the gun (lethal force required) you aren't justified legally in drawing it.

You are obligated to retreat and will be held responsible if you escalate a non-lethal situation to one where lethal force is required.

OK. I realize that a lot of errors have already been made for the situation. Rather than state that you would never allow that to happen, just take the scenario from where I left off; but feel free to identify ways that the scenario could have been handled better up to that point.

Now - what would you do?

Second scenario:

Same thing, except you are the passenger and your spouse/significant other is driving. The man walks up and strikes your spouse/SO.
 
I am interested in this one being 6'5" and 230#. I can not assume I am in danger until a weapon is drawn. I would fight my way out of the confrontation- a thumb in the eyes has always worked- more than groin punches) and put ten yards between us. Keeping it there. Are you allowed to warn of a gun?

I think shooting unless he is armed is asking for problems, I think a DA could argue that his head was hit and the person was not right. You acted savagely by not retreating to the woods until the cops showed.

The week I moved to the Springs, two guys got into an accident, the drunk one got out shooting, the other guy also had a gun and won the fight- no charges.

[This message has been edited by hube1236 (edited July 10, 2000).]
 
By getting out of the car you are exposing yourself to a possible altercation.

Unless you see a gun, I wouldn't bother getting out of the car until police arrive.

Lock your doors.


If he attempts to gain entry to your vehicle, you would PROBABLY be justified in using deadly force being that you were in fear of death or serious bodily injury.
 
Use of force laws vary by state. My opinion is to worry about them after the dust has settled. If I'm legitimately in fear for my life or GBH (great bodily harm), I'm gonna use everything I've got. Fortunately, that's what the laws of Florida say.

Anyway, the Florida laws also say you have a duty to retreat (with a few exceptions). That would be my first idea. While retreating, I would unholster. I would also call the cops if I had my cell phone with me. However, if a weapon came out from his end, I'd unload on him.

Finally, a shot to the leg or some other non-vital area will slow the assailant down, without doing more damage than necessary.

Unfortunately, there is no bright line rule. If a state attorney decides to prosecute you, each case turns on it's own facts. Furthermore, if the guy or his family wants to sue you civilly, same deal.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by branrot:
Finally, a shot to the leg or some other non-vital area will slow the assailant down, without doing more damage than necessary.[/quote]

A leg is hard to hit, especially if the guy is moving. I've read that the best place for a non-lethal incapacitating shot is the pelvis.

As for the scenario, it says you're already out of the vehicle, so I'd put the car between me and the aggressor (in fact I would have done this before he ever managed to get close enough to hit me). If he comes around one side, I go around the other. If someone is with me, I'd get them behind me and keep them with me.

I would not draw on him unless he showed a weapon or managed to get within contact distance again. I also would not say anything about having a gun, that could be construed as "communicating a threat".
 
Being female has its advantages; some guy strikes me, even a little guy, I can always plan on being 'helpless female' if it ends in court.

That said, I had a situation too similar to this awhile back. Got rear-ended pulling into my own driveway from our rural highway. Got out of my van to check damage and make sure the other guy was ok -- he hit pretty hard and his truck was badly damaged.

He jumped out of his truck and came out with a stream of loud profanity. I should have been expecting it but was caught entirely off guard. Stood there with my mouth open and no sound coming out, the famous "deer caught in the headlights" reaction.

My teenage babysitter, who was in the van with me, immediately hopped out of the van on the far side and shepherded my kids out of our front yard. She disappeared into the house with them, locked the front door, and called the cops. (This is one reason she is our regular babysitter; the girl has BRAINS.)

Husband's buddy, Don, heard the noise and came barrelling out of our garage (husband was on a ladder in the attic and didn't hear a thing). Puffed himself up like an angry cat and got right in the guys face, nose to nose. "Calm down, buddy, just take it easy, back off, calm down, take it easy."

I'd never before seen a human being gain three inches in height and six in circumference but our buddy Don managed it when he went nose to nose with the guy. I caught a puffer fish in Mexico once that gained less in size than he did.

Am I proud of my own reaction to this scene? Heck no! It was one of the things that sparked my interest in self defense topics, in fact -- because I KNEW that it was my sheer dumb luck that the people around me were able to take care of me in spite of my obvious stupidity.

However, my babysitter and our buddy Don both deserve a medal in my book. :) Good people to have around in a pinch.

pax

"Trouble shared is trouble halved." -- Dorothy L. Sayers

"I no doubt deserved my enemies, but I don't believe I deserved my friends." -- Walt Whitman
 
In the senario, you have not described anything which would cause a reasonable person fear of serious bodily injury or death. Though there is a fine line, I agree, depending on mitigating circumstances. As such, you cannot shoot. (I cannot, at least, being 6 feet tall, 205 lbs, in shape, and male. Neither can most men and many women.)

A wounding shot is totally out of the question. You have no justification for escalating to levl of appropriate force to lethal force. You will go to prison. You will lose the civil suit against you.

As already advised, if you recognize the threat in time, retreat, preferably putting distance and the car between you and the other motorist. If you have a cell phone and have not already dialled 911, do so at once.
 
Pulling the gun is unnecessary. A reasonable guy might stop the attack. Heck, I hit him, and now he hit me. It's even. I can take that.

If he's coming at me again, I'll take it hand to hand. If he's far better skilled than I, I'll run to HIS car. Maybe he'll think of protecting his car instead of beating on me.

Reaching for a gun is probably not a good idea until you are otherwise unable to reasonably defend yourself. If he graps a crow bar, pulling a gun is reasonable.

It's always good to have options.

------------------
There are two types of men: those with guns, and those at their mercy.
 
Picking up where you left off...

I would personally (assuming I'm still situationally aware after being cold-cocked) retreat as quickly as possible while ordering the agressor to back off! I would not get into a physical struggle with this guy if I am armed. I would rather go to court than have him take control of my gun.

If he didn't stop his agression immediately when ordered to do so, I would obtain a full combat grip, weak hand extended in halt mode (without drawing) and shout loudly to "BACK OFF" and that I would consider any more forward movement on his part to be a threat to me.

If that didn't stop him I would take aim at center mass and give him about a half second to cease hostility.

But that's just the way I am about folks whuppin up on me...

And about the other one...for me personally, if ANYBODY hits my wife they will be met with an immediate drawn gun and an order to cease or die (the half second rule applies)!!!

But that's just the way I am about folks whuppin up on my wife, kids, grandkids etc...

Mikey

[This message has been edited by Mikey (edited July 10, 2000).]
 
Personally I would find much more saticfaction in beating the crap out of a guy that had hit my wife than shooting him. If you beat the crap out of him you are justified and will not go to jail. If you shoot him then your whole world will be turned upside down and you will be getting it up the poopchute from your cellmate.

If he had hit me, I think first I would be in shock because he hadn't been shouting at me as he approached and so I would not expect to be popped. I would probably hit him back several times when I realized the situation. I know tactically this isn't good when you have a pistol on your hip. but the question was what would I do.

If he brought out a weapon I would draw on him and hold on him backing away and shouting to drop it unless I felt he could harm me before I could pull the trigger. Then I would start shooting at him, hopefully hitting him until he posed no threat.
 
I suggest it's unadvisable to engage in contact-distance stuff if you're carrying. If he grapples with you, feels the gun and grabs it, you have a BIG problem.
 
First of all, I must comment on the notion of shooting a "non-lethal" area, or shooting "to wound". It is pure and utter NONSENSE that CAN, and quite likely WILL get you imprisoned. ANY gun is considered a LETHAL weapon, capable of inflicting death. Presentation of a lethal weapon is only acceptable in response to, or to avert a, LETHAL(or potentially so) attack. Getting clocked by a seemingly equivalent sized adversary would not qualify.
Now, being from Florida, I can comment on retreating. It is known as the "retreat-to-the-wall" concept. You must make an effort to flee the attack, or to stand down from it in some manner, IF: In so doing, you do not become exposed to further jeapordy. In your example, would the "flight" across a roadway teeming with traffic be deemed as increased danger? Could an elderly, frail man be expected to outrun someone younger and healthier?
Now, if you've backed off, and the guy keeps coming, you better do your best to keep a car between the two of you until the constabulary arrives. If his continued behaviour and words would lead a "reasonable person" to assume that he means you "grievous bodily harm, or death", and you are truly in fear of same, THEN you are justified in presenting your gun. His continued advance on you, after noting your gun and verbal challenge, can only lead to one conclusion: Fire to COM, or head, and hope it works.
As to a lawsuit, that's only gonna happen if you have enough wealth for an attorney to be tempted to take it on a contigency basis. Not too many people can afford to shell out from their own pockets for a potentially minimal award against the average working stiff. I am NOT an attorney-so take the preceeding OPINION as such. We all should consider replacing our next gun purchase with a consultation with, and retainer paid to, a qualified criminal defense attorney in our area.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by branrot:
Finally, a shot to the leg or some other non-vital area will slow the assailant down, without doing more damage than necessary.
[/quote]

That is a mistake. If you need to draw and shoot, you had better be in a situation where you're in fear for your life.

This is a tough scenario. If you've got your weapon on you already then you need to either use it or avoid the fight. I'll break your rule, and advise staying in the car with doors locked and windows up. Call the cops with your cell, and keep the gun hidden but very ready. This is assuming I'm thinking straight :).
 
In both cases, you have absolutely no excuse for drawing any weapon - if you're an average-sized average-abilitied male.

There is no disparity of force: he's your size or a bit smaller. There is no immediate risk of death or grave bodily harm. Only if you're female, particularly small or weak, or there's more of them than you, would you have any excuse for drawing a weapon.

Just back off and difuse the situation. So what if you get a few lumps in the process . He's just generically pissed; back off and calm him down. You REALLY SHOULD know how to deal with a basic fistfight and be able to convince him that fighting you is probably a bad idea (that's what you practice an empty-hand or small-tool martial art for - you ARE studying alternate non-lethal martial arts along with the killing arts, RIGHT?).

In the second case, what the hell are you doing letting your lady face a likely-angry driver while you sit comfortably in the car? Be the first one to face the stranger. (Ladies, face it: your man is stronger and more designed for combat...let him face the pissed-off stranger first.) Thus scenario 2 turns into scenario 1.

It's not a deadly force case. Treat it as such. Not everything is a nail, and not all your tools are hammers.
 
Not trying to start a war here but any time any combative adult male is within contact distance while you are armed is a potentially lethal situation. Whether you know Karate, Ju-Jitzu or several other Japanese (or Okinawan) words, this guy might know two more!

Most posters, including myself, stated that the logical initial action is to retreat and try to diffuse the situation but NO WAY do you go hand to hand with a gun on your hip. One lucky punch and he has your gun. Then an average fist fight turns into a deadly encounter with you on the receiving end.

If, after repeated warnings, the guy is really only interested in fistycuffs, he'll diffuse the situation himself when he sees the open end of a 45 tube! He might even be a little more polite to the next citizen he encounters in a bad situation.

Mikey
 
Umm, has anyone here heard of pepperspray??

First scenario - SBG (sorta bad guy) strikes me, I back off quickly while spraying his face with OC. In fact, I'd most likely spray him before he had a chance to hit me. Next step would probably be to jump in the car and lock the doors, drive off if necessary. Call the fuzz on the cell. But the initial application of OC gives me a lot more options.

Second scenario - Exactly the same. No revenge BS (although if the GF wants to break the jerkwads nose, I'll look the other way. ;))

Going hand-to-hand with strangers is a real bad idea. If you make a habit of this, you will get maimed or killed, sooner rather than later.

Anyway, that's my plan. I love these real-life response threads. It's always good to role-play your options out beforehand.

Later,
Chris


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"TV what do I see, tell me who to believe, what's the use of autonomy when a button does it all??" - Incubus, Idiot Box
 
1. do not get out of the car unless you have to. a dent or stratch in your car is fixable. a shooting is not.
2. drive away if you can. unless there has been an accident and you would be viewed as leaving the scene or car is not drivable
3. another good reason to carry a cell phone as well as a gun, nonleathal deterent and a good flashlight. be the FIRST to call the police. tell them exactly what is going on.
4. if you are out of the car and he presses the attack, match force with force but still attempt to back off. get back in the car and sit tight provided you have called the police.
5. if you start getting your A$$ kicked, this is a good time to have a pepper gas weapon or think about really hurting this creep. eyes, throat, groin, solar plexus are all killer strike points. always remember no matter how big a guy is, crush his knee from the side and he will go down.

this brings out the point of what is the fine line between him saying "We were having a fair fight and he shot me!" and you saying "Your honor he was beating me until i REALLY feared for my life!!"
i hate to say it but i would think you would need bruises and possibly some broken stuff like a nose or bones ect. to make a jury believe that you just did not pull the gun and shoot a guy in the middle of this fight.
i have thought on this subject for many years and it has caused me to study unarmed self defense in the vein of how to disable or unbalance an attacker quickly. the fact that we carry a gun makes us, if anything more in need of time spent in the dojo or gym studying these techniques.
balance the fact that you may spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees, time in jail and lose your life as a citizen against the fact that you or your loved one WILL DIE, BE CRIPPLED, KIDNAPPED OR RAPED.
the law allows no other choices

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
 
Lots of people said the right stuff. I would like to add a comment to the initial statement that you think "you could take him".

You never know who you can take. If you study a bit on knife concealment - a slight little guy with a Sypderco Ladybug can walk up to you and cut the crap out of something important.

A weak person can stick a strong finger right through your eye socket.

One of the scariest stories I heard was someone facing an 8 year old charging at them whirling a butcher knife in a blur of figure eights. Grown men back up from that. When someone angry approaches - don't assume you can take anybody.

Big wrestlers are scared doodyless of approach fans who stick pins in them and stab them.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Finally, a shot to the leg or some other non-vital area will slow the assailant down, without doing more damage than necessary.[/quote]

Wow, I wish my anatomy training was this good, so I could direct a bullet into someone's leg while avoiding important stuff like the femoral artery, the femoral vein, the sciatic nerve, the hip joint, and the femoral shaft. Still might have to sterilize the bullet, though, and maybe squirt a little Betadine on the guy's clothes before I shoot, so as not to cause a life-threatening deep infection, or a chronic osteomyelitis necessitating amputation. Oh, yeah, and maybe give him a little heparin so he doesn't throw a big pulmonary embolism and die later while waiting for his "non-vital" leg wound to heal.

Don't know about you guys, but I consider my legs pretty damn vital. They let me walk around, among other stuff.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A leg is hard to hit, especially if the guy is moving. I've read that the best place for a non-lethal incapacitating shot is the pelvis.[/quote]

True about the incapacitation part. Not so sure about the "non-lethal" part. Where are you guys finding these magic "vital structure-avoiding" bullets?? After you shoot this guy in a "non-lethal" way, in the ensuing civil lawsuit his attorney will be more than happy to have the gentleman describe to the jury his withered useless leg (from sacral plexus damage), his impotence (same), and his permanent colostomy.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "SHOOT TO WOUND". A GUN IS DEADLY FORCE. YOU MAY ONLY USE DEADLY FORCE IF YOU ARE IN IMMINENT DANGER OF DEATH OR GRAVE BODILY HARM.

There, I feel better now.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
True about the incapacitation part. Not so sure about the "non-lethal" part. Where are you guys finding these magic "vital structure-avoiding" bullets?? After you shoot this guy in a "non-lethal" way, in the ensuing civil lawsuit his attorney will be more than happy to have the gentleman describe to the jury his withered useless leg (from sacral plexus damage), his impotence (same), and his permanent colostomy.
[/quote]

True, Doc. I have a friend who escalated a sensless altercation in a drunken stupor, and was rewarded with a .45 to the pelvis. He lost a testicle and a fair amount of flesh from his rump. He was lucky to escape with his life and the rest of his anatomy.

I concur with those who would take their lump and their wounded pride and escape this situation with their life. Your adversary has obviously lost his cool, but you'll escape the situation if you keep yours.
 
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