Conceal Carry Laws, WA. Unarmed assailant

K

kungpow

Inactive
This is my first posting on here.
I was recently involved in a situation where I was forced to draw on another person who was threatening me and my son with a knife. I did everything by the book basically. he was advancing, I told him to back off, he kept coming, I told him I had a gun and to back off, he pulled a knife, I pulled my pistol, he dropped knife and ran. I then called police, gave my statement, they caught him 3 blocks away and he took him in.
This man and his friends live in my apartment complex and I know that these friends are pretty hot at me. At this point we are looking for a new apartment. until then I know that some of these friends are quite good at fighting without weapons. I have some proficiency but not enough to trust that I could take more than one of them on. What are my rights when it comes to this is I am confronted by one of these guys threatens me or my family but they do not have a weapon? Would I still be within my rights to draw if they were advancing on me or my family threatening a fight to draw on them as well and if they did not stop to shoot? I have not found anything clear cut on this so far.
 
Not knowing any further particulars, you may want to consider:

If they have made threats actual or implied then get a protection order against them.

Consider temporarily moving out to a hotel/motel. It may cost a bit but you would spend a 100 times more for a lawyer in a trial if you have to use your gun.

Put a priority on finding a new apartment.

As far as the legality of defense they lawyers can address those questions. Nothing is clear cut. But yes you are able to use your gun to defend yourself and loved ones if there is disparity of force (out numbered), yada yada. Many people are killed each year by bare knuckles and knives but you will need to justify your actions see point two above about an affirmative defense.
 
Sorry to hear about your situation. I would talk with the prosecutor attorney's office and get what you can from them, as well as from your county Sheriff and/or City Police Dept. If it was me in your situation, I would firstly get my family to safety. To me, it comes down to what you or your family are subjected to regarding the use of deadly force. I would personally use it the moment I felt there was imminent threat of bodily harm, with no way out-but do check with your resources by all means.
 
From what I know of Washington state laws. It is legal if you have a reasonable fear for your life. There is also a recent case where a man was found not guilty for shooting someone who was driving away in his car. (He did think that the thief was turning around to shoot him but there were some awful grey areas in the whole case) I am just trying to get more educated on this law as I do not see anything more definitive than fearing for your life. It seems like a large grey area to me and I do not want to put my family in the situation of having their father in jail because I overstepped my legal rights in this type of matter. We are moving into my parents house within the week and my wife and kids are on their way already till we find another place but my work hours and them being a 4 hour drive from where I work is preventing that from happening for 2 more days.
 
For the lawyers who may or may not weigh in, WA use of force laws are in four places I can find. One for Peace Officers and those aiding, one of just definitions/repealed statutes, and these two:


RCW 9A.16.020 says:
Washington State Legislature said:
Use of force — When lawful.

The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:

(1) Whenever necessarily used by a public officer in the performance of a legal duty, or a person assisting the officer and acting under the officer's direction;

(2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;

(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;

(4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;

(5) Whenever used by a carrier of passengers or the carrier's authorized agent or servant, or other person assisting them at their request in expelling from a carriage, railway car, vessel, or other vehicle, a passenger who refuses to obey a lawful and reasonable regulation prescribed for the conduct of passengers, if such vehicle has first been stopped and the force used is not more than is necessary to expel the offender with reasonable regard to the offender's personal safety;

(6) Whenever used by any person to prevent a mentally ill, mentally incompetent, or mentally disabled person from committing an act dangerous to any person, or in enforcing necessary restraint for the protection or restoration to health of the person, during such period only as is necessary to obtain legal authority for the restraint or custody of the person.
Click to expand...

RCW 9A.16.050 says:

Washington State Legislature said:
Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.

Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his or her presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he or she is.
Click to expand...

But I wouldn't expect more than generalities explaining the laws quoted above and how they may or may not interact with disparity of force etc. in a manner meant to be educational, and not legal advice, especially as though they are a lawyer, they're not YOUR lawyer.
 
Welcome to TFL, kungpow!

While I think you've asked some perfectly valid questions, I'm going to offer one bit of caution: Please bear in mind that: (a) what you tell a lawyer is confidential; but (b) what you post on the internet is not.
 
One thing I'll add to what my colleague Spats McGee wrote. It can be helpful to have a record/paper trail. If the man and/or his friends threaten you or your family members, be sure to file a police report.
 
kungpow,

Here are some relevant gun laws for the state of WA: (scroll down)

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/washington.pdf

9A.16.020 (3) appears to cover any situation where you are in imminent danger of being harmed. The sentence is not more prescriptive in terms of means. Multiple assailants would logically fit that description.

Knowledge of the law falls (IMHO) into the "necessary but insufficient" category with regard to a group of thugs who are threatening you and your family. What is required is a mental determination that they will not harm your son, or anyone else in your family, before you act to stop them. The firearm is just a tool. You are the weapon.

By all means understand the law, and the suggestions above are all wise precautions - but I suggest you resolve to do what you must to keep your son safe. After that decision is made, the rest will flow from whatever scenario you're presented with.
 
Get a lawyer.

Get it documented in the system you are being threatened/harassed. (police report / restraining order)

Get a lawyer.

Remember that if you ARE in a situation with these people where you are forced to defend yourself (before you can get yourself and family away from them) that after what ever happens, happens, expect them to lie to the police.

Expect ALL of them to tell the police you were the attacker, they was just mindin their own business, etc....

Get a Lawyer.

Get one now, before anything else happens.
and, as already mentioned, remember what you say here can be a matter of public record.

Good Luck, and welcome to TFL!

and, did I mention, Get a Lawyer?!!!
 
As a long-time Washington state resident, I must confess that I am shocked by paragraph 4 of RCW 9A.16.020, quoted by JimDandy. Tell me if I should start a new thread, because this is not directly on the original topic.

As I read paragraph 4, a property owner or tenant could use or threaten to use force to hold a possible trespasser, even outside a building. I always thought that if I accidentally trespass, I could simply walk away if confronted by a hostile owner.
 
That's my reading of that law. However, in Illinois it's only criminal trespass if you remain after being told to leave... In addition to signs, fences etc. there has to be a delineation between error and criminality IMHO
 
Thank you for all of your replies. I have since gotten a lawyer, filed a restraining order, gave a copy of the police report to the apartment complex (the aforementioned tenants have been kicked out) and the everyone besides me is at my parents.
 
Ask your lawyer about disparity of force when confronted by two or more unarmed individuals if you haven't done so already. I believe WA law has provisions for such, or so I was lead to believe in the NRA Personal Protection in the Home curriculum as presented by a lawyer.
 
As mentioned, familiarize yourself with the concept of disparity of force. It is ubiquitously employed when litigating self-defense cases.

Here are just a couple examples of disparity of force that might arise even though the threatening party(s) may be unarmed:

1. Multiple individuals threatening a single individual.
2. A strong healthy person threatening a weak, aged or disabled individual.
3. An ongoing attack between two similarly able persons, wherein the victim's ability to defend himself has been compromised (yet the attack is continuing).

Hope this helps.
 
Welcome to the forum. You're in a tough spot, one that perhaps millions of people have been in before... on the constant defensive and in fear of retaliation.

The legal language of the RCW and other state/federal laws can be confusing and verbose. Keep in mind that in general as long as you aren't breaking the law or instigating the altercation, you can use the appropriate non-lethal or lethal force when you are in fear of immediate serious bodily harm to yourself or another innocent 3rd party (your wife, your uncle, your friend, etc.). But the force must be commensurate with the attack. It gets tricky when say an unarmed person comes at you to pummel you - the obvious concern is that using a gun in a 'fist fight' may not be appropriate. Here is where I believe most will agree: If a professional brawler or several brawlers with bare fists are attacking you, a reasonable case can be made that you would quickly be knocked unconscious, or have serious bodily harm (broken nose, jaw, damaged eye sockets, concussion, etc.). And you don't reasonably know that they are NOT armed with concealed weapons (knives, saps, or worse). I believe that you would be justified in using a firearm in self defense in such a scenario, and I certainly would not hesitate if I were confronted with 1 or more bare fisted brawlers. The requirement in the law is that you act as a reasonable person would - and if a person were attacked by bare fisted brawlers, in fear of being beaten unconscious (and then helpless to die), then a reasonable person would be within his rights to defend himself with lethal force.

This is not legal advice, but my interpretation of the law and how I conduct myself.

Other tips:

1. Avoid them. Sadly this likely comes at some expense. Looks like it's time to move and go unlisted. A temporary move while you find a permanent location is an idea. Best to not even be in the situation.

2. Document everything. Weird phone calls. Slow drive-bys. Weird people at the door. Carry a camera so you can get pictures of anything suspect at all times. Pictures speak a thousand words. Exterior cameras, and even car mounted cameras are a great idea.

3. Teach all members of family, neighbors, friends, baby-sitter, etc. heightened sense of security. Don't give any information to strangers. Situational awareness is a huge component of safety. Travel in pairs if possible. Better safety, and you always have a battle buddy or a witness if trouble stirs.

4. File the police report(s) and consider restraining orders as necessary. But this can backfire... so just be aware that it's just a piece of paper and you may instigate something if it's not already in the works. Perhaps talk to the local victim advocate at the courthouse for options.

5. Now is the time to teach adults in your family self defense and gun safety. All adults should have carry permits for emergencies like this, and be familiar and ready to use the manual of arms of the household weapons.

6. Harden your household with extra door and window security, lights, cameras, noisy motion detectors inside your home, etc. Change all locks, round up all keys, etc.

7. Testify. Make sure you don't skip testifying against this jerk. He needs to go to prison for the assault. If anyone threatens you to not testify, report it because that is witness tampering and a crime. That person will be arrested and go away too.

8. Purchase 'self defense insurance.' There are companies that provide a significant retainer to you if you end up using your gun in self defense and need a lawyer. It's about $80 a year, and a good investment for anyone that owns a gun for self defense. http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/

9. Meet with and retain a lawyer for just such an occasion. A few bucks and a business card to call an experienced criminal defense lawyer is a good investment. Memorize that number.

10. Might be a good idea to take some professional self defense courses. These are good overall, but will also aid in documenting that you were in fear and that you got professional training in the event you end up having to have your lawyer explain your case to a jury.

Good luck to you!
 
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